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Topic ClosedIn the Defense of Criticism Towards Metal

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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:55
^ that would also be my main point: Metal is too diverse a genre to be generalized like that. Even if you take a specific sub genre - like Black Metal for example - you can't really say that it's all childish and immature, although I realize that it's open for debate (so I'd rather have to say "IMO you can't really say ...").
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:00
In resorting to inferring that all of metal is a juvenile genre, Trademark is acting wholly immature. Pure irony. That such a breadth of PA-goers come out against such nonsense show that such a view is not worthy of being held by an adult. Otherwise, you're a snobbish, insecure elitist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:04
Would just like to point out that neither Awaken the Guardian nor Transcendence Into the Peripheral really fits squarely into what can be called as prog metal...whether or not the bands in question are on PA.  And I don't know what Disembowelment were shooting for but with Awaken The Guardian, Fates Warning were simply trying to make true heavy metal at a time when heavy metal was getting more and more glam-med. Didn't know that was supposed to be "sophisticated". Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:12
^ the thread isn't about prog metal, but metal in general. There's that dreaded word again ... AngryWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:17
i like boris





















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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:28
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ the thread isn't about prog metal, but metal in general. There's that dreaded word again ... AngryWink

I know, but Rocktopus seemed to be implying that both those albums are prog metal and I don't agree, that's all. They are metal, of course.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:31
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Would just like to point out that neither Awaken the Guardian nor Transcendence Into the Peripheral really fits squarely into what can be called as prog metal...whether or not the bands in question are on PA.  And I don't know what Disembowelment were shooting for but with Awaken The Guardian, Fates Warning were simply trying to make true heavy metal at a time when heavy metal was getting more and more glam-med. Didn't know that was supposed to be "sophisticated". Confused

ok, since you started this one, MR prog freak is right t osay that this is disscussion of metal , not just prog. and don't blame fates warning ,why did you picked that album , awaken ? they have much more greater albums then that one, yeah i no i doesn't sound to proggy but for that time it was groundbreaking , we are speaking of  1984, there were no Prog metal term then so some one have to coin it. they are the begginers ,and every begging must be like this ,raw sound in this case od heavy metal, but prog touches are inevitable . Who mentioned the word ''sophisticated'',  at that time fates have ideas of that kind, but if take paralles, or A pleasent shade of grey or disconected you will see that thier sound has matured through time IMO. and there are numerious examples like Fates , starts with something and reach prog metal last. for Example nerosis their first Pain of MInd is aweful punk/hardcore , but A sun that never sets , and the Eye of every strom are Class. and here we come to my that in 1988 wasn't spread , in this neurosis case Post metal/sludge, so someone have to make it. have you heard therion's Of darkness, it is far from prog, but their other albums are imense. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 10:35
Originally posted by angelmk angelmk wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Would just like to point out that neither Awaken the Guardian nor Transcendence Into the Peripheral really fits squarely into what can be called as prog metal...whether or not the bands in question are on PA.  And I don't know what Disembowelment were shooting for but with Awaken The Guardian, Fates Warning were simply trying to make true heavy metal at a time when heavy metal was getting more and more glam-med. Didn't know that was supposed to be "sophisticated". Confused

ok, since you started this one, MR prog freak is right t osay that this is disscussion of metal , not just prog. and don't blame fates warning ,why did you picked that album , awaken ? they have much more greater albums then that one, yeah i no i doesn't sound to proggy but for that time it was groundbreaking , we are speaking of  1984, there were no Prog metal term then so some one have to coin it. they are the begginers ,and every begging must be like this ,raw sound in this case od heavy metal, but prog touches are inevitable . Who mentioned the word ''sophisticated'',  at that time fates have ideas of that kind, but if take paralles, or A pleasent shade of grey or disconected you will see that thier sound has matured through time IMO. and there are numerious examples like Fates , starts with something and reach prog metal last. for Example nerosis their first Pain of MInd is aweful punk/hardcore , but A sun that never sets , and the Eye of every strom are Class. and here we come to my that in 1988 wasn't spread , in this neurosis case Post metal/sludge, so someone have to make it. have you heard therion's Of darkness, it is far from prog, but their other albums are imense. 

Please read Rocktopus's post and then read my post, hopefully it will clear the context. Confused Just for the record, Awaken The Guardian is my favourite FW album,  yes it's not prog metal, but I am not so big on labels and I love metal anyway. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 11:29
OK , rogerthat,  i switched you with Rocktopus , it happens .  anyway it's good for you to listen metal. keep on doing it Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 12:18
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

There's nothing wrong in doing that. And in general I think he had a good point. Even though I actually love Cowboys From Hell and laugh at the more "sophisticated" Awaken The Guardian and Disembowelment's Transcendence Into The Peripheral. (silliest progmetal title I've seen so far)

My absolute number one for silliest metal titles would go to two tracks from Demilich's Nesphite album.

The Putrefying Road in the Nineteenth Extremity (...Somewhere Inside the Bowels of Endlessness...)
The Planet That Once Used To Absorb Flesh In Order To Achieve Divinity and Immortality (Suffocated To The Flesh That It Desired...).

LOL


Edited by Trial and Error - March 04 2009 at 12:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 14:57
We're childish and passionate music fans, and you and Trademark are grumpy old men. I don't see anything wrong with that. We're positive, you're negative ... yin and yang.Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 14:58

And with that, it's time to return to the original topic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 15:04
I'm still kind of defending criticism of metal ... in a sort of "page 6 mode".Wink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 15:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

We're childish and passionate music fans, and you and Trademark are grumpy old men. I don't see anything wrong with that. We're positive, you're negative ... yin and yang.Big smile


I'm not older than you. I'm just defending Trademark's opinions, because I think his words are being twisted around and not read properly.


Edited by Rocktopus - March 04 2009 at 15:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 16:07
I don't think this has to do with age ... it's about different mind sets. Maybe you're not old, but your posts in this thread have been so bitter and dead serious ... just like Trademark's. What did metal ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2009 at 18:11
QUOTE=Rocktopus]
Originally posted by angelmk angelmk wrote:

In general FOR TRADEMARK,  his way of generalizing of metal was wrong, saying childish, immature it is. 

That's funny. I think you're the one that comes across as childish immature (in general), not Trademark. 
[/QUOTE]
Did i make up something ? trademark was saying that for 3 days from now,  Did i say somenthing it is not true? tell me. i was just quoting him. 
And can you elaborate this statement of yours becouse i realy don't get it.  what was immature in my sayings, i want to know? 


Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

We're childish and passionate music fans, and you and Trademark are grumpy old men. I don't see anything wrong with that. We're positive, you're negative ... yin and yang.

I'm not older than you. I'm just defending Trademark's opinions, because I think his words are beingtwisted around and not read properly. 
instead of defending trademark opinions , say something from your own!!!  tell your opinion ,let me hear . Let trademark speak for himself. Please . have you read whole debate , if you did, tell me how his words his been twisted? OK, how do you understand Trademark's words? 

ok twist this:


Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth".  It really is OK to grow up.  When I was 15 I enjoyed a lot of the metal of the time.  Now I see it for the juvenile genre it really is.  I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV.  It really IS funny.  Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting.  What it is, is COMEDY to anyone who has managed to achieve a bit of emotional maturity.

and all started with this statement. here precisely metal was said to be juvenille genre, which must be grown out(yeah right);  so juvenile = childish call whatever you whant, the same reference, (false one) Comedy ??? of what , listen to for say jazz , or i don't know what, make you more mature person? you achieve emotional maturity with not listening to metal,perhaps? No ,you are wrong again.  No, my fellow. It is free choice. It is personal, What i consider juvenile for me, must not means the same you consider juvenile, trademark dared to GENERALIZE .very wrong. And citing the bible? the worst thing i've ever encountered so far.  How did he understand all that : 

     '''Now I see it forthe juvenile genre it really is.  I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV.  It really IS funny.  Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting. ''''

how came up with this conclusions?  based on what? Metal  is juvenile becouse it is? not need to prove that? becouse it is widely accepted fact? and need not to be proven?  No,No   you and trademark are falling becouse of lack of arguments(proofs)!!! you  cannot say something  is true becouse you say so!!!! Who are you to Judge ?!for metal in this case? 



Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

The quote from Corinthians and the use of the words juvenille & adolescent were meant to indicate (perhaps not clearly enough) a fairly well documented stage of physical and intellectual development; one which ends when the processes of body and brain development are complete (around age 20).

The actual point I was trying to make is how odd it seems to me that people not only continue to choose music and other forms of entertainment (video games anyone?) that are designed for and marketed to an adolescent mentality.  Make no mistake about it, the marketing research department at the Roadrunner label has more people on it than all the band rosters put together.  This music is "marketing metal", and the target audience is High School boys and it shows.  I enjoyed it and listened to it in my season, but I don't understand adults treating it as if it were something other than what it is in a seemingly desperate attempt to "maintain a youthful spirit".  I really can't see the difference between an adult sitting down to listen to metal and enjoying it and an adult sitting down to watch Barney and enjoying it.  Neither is "age appropriate."

The dogged determination to hold onto this part of life both confuses and amuses me.  Its at a pandemic level here in the states.  The idea that you can only be happy if you're young and totally stupid (which we all are at that age) is not so much the problem as the idea that you should never grow out of it.  Metal is a symptom (a hacking, growling cough), not the disease.

how this music is targetting youth only,tell me?!!! when dean said he is 51 and still metal fan, Iron maiden  guys are from 50 - 60 age range, and still rocking ,what keeps them on tack ? man it is love for the music,it is the thing that made them feel live, breath through music man, it is like nektar to them , they have to make music to keep alive. and that music apears to be metal,what an irony ,We came to  another statement of trademark acording to which: he invent the term "age appropriate." music ?  how could you explain this one?  juvenile = childish,as i said? metal was intentened to specific age ? -No, metal is invented up in the 70'  with black sabbath,so people who lived in that period and was young then, should stop listening to it  becouse they grew older? they change their opinion suddenly? no ,man it doesn't go that way. - No, One does what he think is the more apropriate, matter of free choice, liberty of mind is what keeps one , Free spirit, and will to explore more music genres and pick up those which he find apropriate ,and worth spending his precious  time on, you whant to say that we metal lovers spend our time for nothing?wasting it? No,my fellow , metal is worth the attention it deserves. whole of it.  and metal is a diverse genre ,so one can digg for many  years ,,   desperate attempt to "maintain a youthful spirit". - '''you should never grow out of it''' how can one grow out of something you have ben listening for long time? or doing it? would one give up of listening for ex prog? you have been doing in the young age , and one contionues listenting prog rock for ever and ever. that is one like ,no matter how juvenile others think it is . or another example : i have been collecting music for 10 years, would i stop doing it? - no, it satisfies me, it makes me feel great, more happier person when i came across new music.Same as with to say eating chocolate,i loved eating chocolate when i was young, i am still eating chocolate,Why? becouse i like it,it is as tasty as the first time i tried it, loved then , more i like it know.  same with metal, One cannot grow out of it(as trademark stated) becouse it is targetting youth?(according to whom)

So how many of bolded ones above contain the words or phrases  targetting ''age appropriate music''::   juvenile, targetting youth, childish music,  not for adults,  immature,  ?
and What  age have to do with music anyway? you like it or not, it is simple !  


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

I don't think this has to do with age ... it's about different mind sets. Maybe you're not old, but your posts in this thread have been so bitter and dead serious ... just like Trademark's. What did metal ever do to you?
i want tot know the same. what metal have done to you hate it so much? 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 01:45
About growing out of metal: I think it is possible, but only for people who never cared much for music anyway. I have quite a few friends who only listened to music when they were adolescents, and stopped doing it once they got married or had kids. Not just metal, but also rock and all other sorts of popular music. I guess that they only ever listened to music because it made them cool (or at least they thought it did) and all their friends did it.

If you truly enjoy listening to metal then I guess you'll never grow out of it ... except for a few people who feel the need to be superior to others. I've seen that happen too ... people will suddenly stop listening to rock or metal and devote all their attention to classical and jazz. Personally, I don't think that this makes sense ... you can try to reach perfection and abandon everything as soon as you find something that - in your opinion - is more evolved. But in the end, that leaves you with very few options.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 02:01
^ That's probably quite true Mike. Often people will profess to liking a band or style of music to impress someone or to fit in with a group of people/friends. And then when they fall-out with those, they stop "liking" the music too. I know that I chose to dislike Zappa for the opposite reason - I didn't like the "cool-kids" at school and they didn't like me, so I didn't want to like their music - the truth is, I saw Zappa play live a few years later and really enjoyed it.
 
And the fans of a genre can be very off-puting when it comes to liking the music - it is difficult (but not impossible) to take EMO seriously when you see some of the fans (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56080&PID=3171007#3171007).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 02:12
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

I don't think this has to do with age ... it's about different mind sets. Maybe you're not old, but your posts in this thread have been so bitter and dead serious ... just like Trademark's. What did metal ever do to you?


My posts aren't dead serious. You just never see it, because I don't use emoticons.

I actually wrote in my first post here that refusing to grow up could be a good thing. In general, don't agree with Trademark. I reacted because people took it personal and failed to see his point, and started adding stuff that wasn't there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 04:11
^ this is the quote from Trademark's post that you seem to always be referring to:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:


My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth".  It really is OK to grow up.


First of all, that quote from the bible is causing the reactions from all those who don't think that all metal is childish. Trademark may not have said "metal is childish", but he says that his feelings about metal are summed up by the quote. He says "in general", but that doesn't make a big difference IMO.

Now please don't think that I would take all of this personal ... I simply have a contrary view and I think the matter is important, so I voice my disagreement. With the second part of his post I even agree: There's no point in refusing to grow up. But at the same time, I don't think it's good to completely abandon every aspect of your childhood. As a child I dreaded the thought that at some point I could end up being just like my parents. Today, I have to say that in some aspects I am ... but luckily I preserved some things. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it is ok to grow up, it shouldn't be like flicking a switch ... like on my 30th birthday I abandon my childhood and am now an entirely different person. Instead I'm trying to stay young in my heart and at the same time keep in mind that I am not young anymore. IMO *that*'s the definition of not being a child/adolescent anymore: To realize that it's not all fun and games ... and that your time is slowly, but steadily running out.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 05 2009 at 04:11
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