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Rocktopus 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
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Points: 4202
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 Posted: March 03 2009 at 03:52 |
 Trademark wrote:
My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:
"When
I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought
as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1Cor. 13:11)
One
of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the
world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth". It really is OK to grow up.
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I'm afraid Trademark is not the one making a fool of himself in this thread, Angelmk.
He uses metal as a relevant genre to raise an interesting and valid
point. And no matter how grown up some of you are here, I believe
there's some truth to what he writes. You take it so personal, that you
have to pretend you're laughing you're head off. I
think there's a lot of good things about "refusing to grow up", and
not do/like what you're supposed to. As long as you don't refuse to
grow a brain and broaden you're horizon too, I'd say its an healthy
attitude. The only music I can think of more revolting than the music that has
teenagers as their target group, is music targeted towards adults.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 04:47 |
I guess that whenever you get passionate about something you risk making a fool of yourself ... after all, from an outsider's perspective, we're all music nerds. When people come to my place and see the 1,000 (give or take) CDs in my collection, they always look quite surprised. They're usually not impressed by it, but slightly alienated.  I think that the point could even be taken another step further: Anyone who has a "serious" hobby as an adult is, in a way, refusing to grow up. Theoretically, as an adult, you should simply be interested in raising children and earning money, and maybe read some books, see some movies, have dinner with friends and spending money on expensive holiday trips. That's something I indeed have no intention of conforming to ... it's just not who I am.
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angelmk
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Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 09:09 |
,
Rocktopus wrote:
Trademark wrote:
My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:
"When
I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought
as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
(1Cor. 13:11)
One
of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the
world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth". It really is OK to grow up.
|
I'm afraid Trademark is not the one making a fool of himself in this thread, Angelmk.
He uses metal as a relevant genre to raise an interesting and valid
point. And no matter how grown up some of you are here, I believe
there's some truth to what he writes. You take it so personal, that you
have to pretend you're laughing you're head off.
I
think there's a lot of good things about "refusing to grow up", and
not do/like what you're supposed to. As long as you don't refuse to
grow a brain and broaden you're horizon too, I'd say its an healthy
attitude.
The only music I can think of more revolting than the music that has
teenagers as their target group, is music targeted towards adults.
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ok.as far as i'am cited here, There is no truth of Trademark's writing at all. It is a matter of taste after all , trademark doesn't like metal.fine with me , but should not say some unvalid arguments to back his theory , childish ,immature or likes he said all this one, i wouldn't call it valid point at all.when you have no proof to back up your statement, it cannot be considered as rightious.It is all a matter of opinion which in this Trademark case is false. it is not the matter of refusing to grow up, It is matter of Passion for the music, and that music(metal) is so diverse, so if you mark one genre to say numetal as immature ,childish, there are others genres which are not. And yes , i take music for serious, and in this case for personal, but i have to admit, last night was a night to remember, and very funny (to me,as long as trademark's statements are concerned) .I'am not attached to metal only ,for your consideration. i'am pretty open minded when music is concerned. Ok, we heard opinion from trademark about teen,childish music  , so tell me which music is targetting adults? acording to you?
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angelmk
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Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 09:22 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I guess that whenever you get passionate about something you risk making a fool of yourself ... after all, from an outsider's perspective, we're all music nerds. When people come to my place and see the 1,000 (give or take) CDs in my collection, they always look quite surprised. They're usually not impressed by it, but slightly alienated.
I think that the point could even be taken another step further: Anyone who has a "serious" hobby as an adult is, in a way, refusing to grow up. Theoretically, as an adult, you should simply be interested in raising children and earning money, and maybe read some books, see some movies, have dinner with friends and spending money on expensive holiday trips. That's something I indeed have no intention of conforming to ... it's just not who I am.
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I thought i'am the only one who have this feeling. It is the same case with me, people came to me and see tons of music , they look suprised , but not in good way. they see all that collecting music of me as awkward case. And that is hobby, and attachement through years to that hobby is getting more intense, and i came to that step when i cannot but listen 5-6 albums a day ,(depends how much time i have) . so i don't think this will change through years, maybe not with this intensity , but i will always remain music lover .
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:33 |
We can get philosophical on a higher plane and ask what really is meant by stuff like growing up, maturity, etc etc. Really, is it worth investing so much thought into a highly finite existence we will ultimately lead? As long as you are not a murderer or something, you are alright, period.
Having said all that, I won't deny that a lot of metal is juvenile in the commonly understood sense. I really don't get why a lot of metal fans get so defensive about this, metal is not jazz or classical, and therefore it has a very accessible radio/TV facade and that facade has to dumb down to survive, it's inevitable. Besides, in a world where nobody is made to feel embarrassed about listening to AC DC, there's nothing to feel ashamed about listening to metal, I mean the whole deal, punkish/harsh vocals, jarring, distorted guitar, thumping, repetitive beats, obscene lyrics so on and so forth. But for every Cowboys from Hell album that lives up to the metal stereotype, we have everlasting masterpieces like Fates Warning's Awaken The Guardian and Disembowelment's Transcendence Into The Peripheral.  |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:44 |
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^ "a lot of metal" may be juvenile, but not all of it ... that's the whole point. When people come along and say "metal can't possibly offer something interesting for adults" then that's simply wrong from my point of view, and should be rectified IMO. And isn't that what this thread is supposed to do?
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:47 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ "a lot of metal" may be juvenile, but not all of it ... that's the whole point. When people come along and say "metal can't possibly offer something interesting for adults" then that's simply wrong from my point of view, and should be rectified IMO. And isn't that what this thread is supposed to do?
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But it's difficult to stop people from generalizing about genres they don't understand...no harm in trying, sure, but it's hard. And besides, I am not about to stop listening to Bonded By Blood because it might be Trademark's idea of a juvenile album, it's a certified thrash metal classic and that seals it for me.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:59 |
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^ of course this thread won't make those who don't like metal change their mind ... but others, who haven't made up their mind about metal yet, might find the discussion interesting. It's a debate ... contrary views are presented, none of the participants change their position, but some viewers/readers might.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 03 2009 at 12:37
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 11:12 |
Oh, I don't object to the debate per se, and certainly not when it is so interesting , just saying we don't really have to justify what we like to anybody, especially when the anybody in question deliberately takes an antagonistic position. What;s beautiful about it to me is elusive to somebody else and sounds unwelcoming to him/her? Their loss? Maybe, much I care about it! It's just the same way as...I am Indian so I eat with my hand a lot though I can very well use a fork and a spoon when I need to and that people who cannot do without a fork and a spoon would think my eating habits awkward or even funny is not going to make me go and defend myself to them! As Abel Magwitch would have said, "Much your opinion, boy!"
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Logan
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 11:24 |
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Regarding a former comment, AOR (as in Adult Oriented Rock) is aimed at adults (as Dean mentioned earlier), and of course there are other types of music particularly targeted at adults. I generally dislike AOR.
I like too much music that is informed/ influenced by metal to dismiss it. I'm not a pure metal guy, but there are many bands that have metal elements that I enjoy considerably. As for juvenile music, Magma is one of my favourite bands, and I think that the music can pretty juvenile in its way. That's part of the fun. What I don't often like is music that seems to take itself too seriously, and comes across as juvenile, and music that seems aimed at appealing to teenage angst, particularly.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: March 03 2009 at 12:39 |
rogerthat wrote:
Oh, I don't object to the debate per se, and certainly not when it is so interesting , just saying we don't really have to justify what we like to anybody, especially when the anybody in question deliberately takes an antagonistic position. What;s beautiful about it to me is elusive to somebody else and sounds unwelcoming to him/her? Their loss? Maybe, much I care about it! It's just the same way as...I am Indian so I eat with my hand a lot though I can very well use a fork and a spoon when I need to and that people who cannot do without a fork and a spoon would think my eating habits awkward or even funny is not going to make me go and defend myself to them! As Abel Magwitch would have said, "Much your opinion, boy!" |
Here in Germany we eat using spoons, forks and knifes ... but we can still seem like barbarians to Americans for example, because we use the knife throughout the meal, while they are used to cutting all up in the beginning and then eat only using the fork. It's all relative ...
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
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Points: 4202
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 06:15 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ "a lot of metal" may be juvenile, but not all of it ... that's the whole point. |
That wasn't the whole point for Trademark. He startet stating that he was gereralizing, to make a point:
My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the followingThere's nothing wrong in doing that. And in general I think he had a good point. Even though I actually love Cowboys From Hell and laugh at the more "sophisticated" Awaken The Guardian and Disembowelment's Transcendence Into The Peripheral. (silliest progmetal title I've seen so far)
Edited by Rocktopus - March 04 2009 at 06:21
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 07:29 |
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^ of course people can generalize ... but sometimes that invalidates your point. For example, when you say "metal in general is juvenile" then I would shrug and say "so is rock". *Maybe* metal is a little bit more juvenile than rock, but there's also punk rock, goth rock etc.. The more you generalize, the less meaningful your point gets.
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heyitsthatguy
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Joined: April 17 2006
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 07:40 |
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one could argue that rock music is juvenile
most mainstream rock is rather juvenile in fact
most mainstream music is rather juvenile in fact
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 08:16 |
some could even argue that prog is juvenile ... or even worse: That "non classical/jazz music as a hobby" is juvenile. Needless to say that I'm glad I'm juvenile ...
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 08:18 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
The more you generalize, the less meaningful your point gets.
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I don't agree. Its it more meaningful than deliberately "misunderstand" what someone is writing, and add opinions that wasn't originally there?
Edited by Rocktopus - March 04 2009 at 09:32
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 08:59 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ "a lot of metal" may be juvenile, but not all of it ... that's the whole point. |
That wasn't the whole point for Trademark. He startet stating that he was gereralizing, to make a point:
My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following
There's nothing wrong in doing that. And in general I think he had a good point. Even though I actually love Cowboys From Hell and laugh at the more "sophisticated" Awaken The Guardian and Disembowelment's Transcendence Into The Peripheral. (silliest progmetal title I've seen so far)
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One cannot generalize to make a point, becouse the opinion comes from one person only it is not generaly accepted one, it is personal, not objective, specific and solely on the speaker(in this case trademark) so it is all right to say ''IMO metal sucks" but diferent thing to say IN GENERAL(according to who?) it is not widely accepted fact . it is pointless to generalize.
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
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Points: 4202
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:31 |
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^Pure nonsense. All of it.
Trademark wrote: My feelings about metal in general - meaning according to him, and no one else. With this he is telling everyone its his subjective opinion. Read properly.
Of course you, him, I or anyone else can generalize to make a point. Infact its very hard to make a point without generalizing. When you write about something in general, you simply state something, and admit that there are exceptions.
(And Trademark never wrote imo metal sucks. Thats just your own way of communicating)
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
|
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:43 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
The more you generalize, the less meaningful your point gets.
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I don't agree.
Its it more meaningful than deliberately "misunderstand" what someone is writing, and add opinions that wasn't originally there?
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Speaking in riddles doesn't help in serious discussions. What (and whom) are you referring to?
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angelmk
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Joined: November 22 2006
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Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:50 |
Rocktopus wrote:
^Pure nonsense. All of it.
Trademark wrote: My feelings about metal in general - meaning according to him, and no one else. With this he is telling everyone its his subjective opinion. Read properly.
Of course you, him, I or anyone else can generalize to make a point. Infact its very hard to make a point without generalizing. When you write about something in general, you simply state something, and admit that there are exceptions.
(And Trademark never wrote imo metal sucks. Thats just your own way of communicating) |
ok, his opinion , who's else?!! . i wasn't objecting on that. In general FOR TRADEMARK, his way of generalizing of metal was wrong, saying childish, immature it is. that is his opinion, metal is diverse genre and cannot be generalized just like that(i've already said this but i feel the need to say it again). Wrong way of generalizing. '' you simply state something '' ok, but this statement of yours(in this case Trademark's must be backed with proof, one cannot state something and argue about it 2 days without giving proper reason for it, ) you have to be specific to make a point ,in our case is neccessary , you can say Nu metal sucks, Grind/death metal sucks.. but whole metal thing ''immature,juvenile,'' - my man have to say more than this to make a point. his disscussion was all based on this two assuption, or simliar of his. (which are false,IMO) another thing i didn't hear from trademark to name some exeption of metal for him, . I didn't say he did say that '' And Trademark never wrote imo metal suck'', i just gave an nameless example it wasn't intended on him.. but anyway we have to ask him about this one .
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