favorite neo prog band

"The Original Neo Prog Band..Marillion...everything else is a pale imitation. It's like do you like butter or margerine?...it has to be Marillion"

Actually, it's not that accurate, if you don't mind me saying.

Marillion were only and simply the first ones to have some commercial success. Before them there was TWELFTH NIGHT and early PALLAS. IQ are contemporary since the times when they weren't called IQ yet. And what about the forefathers of neo, SAGA from Canada?

But regardless of the question of which band was formed frst, the basic idea is that here were a los of bands tha twere interested in continuing the ideals of symphonic prog with an instilled post-punk/new wave fire, and mostly it was a situation in which all these bands shared stage and from time to time influenced and/or supported each other.

I don't think we can consider 4-man Genesis as Neo-prog - they still had the old prog sound and feel.

I think the first neo-prog band has to be Twelfth Night.

It goes without saying that Marillion were/are my favourites

Definitely, I casted my vote to Marillion. The one with Fish on vocals. Otherwise, they certainly don't belong here in its entireness. Like many other bands listed up on this poll.

Regards!

Land

I think "ATTWT" has more aspects of "classic" prog than neo-prog - although it's heading in the neo direction. Don't forget that ATTWT was released in 1978, by which time Twelfth Night had released several tapes and had been gigging for some time. Although the archives lists their early material as 1980, that is wrong, and "Live At the Target" (the 3rd or 4th release?) was released early 1979.

TN had all the hallmarks of neo-prog with noticeable roots in classic prog until "Fact and Fiction" (1982), which for me is the definitive neo-prog album with all the hallmarks (not necessarily the best, although I do have times where I want to hear nothing else - it's a great album!).

You have to consider the rest of the scene, of course - and for me, the guiding light of neo-prog was always Peter Hammill - it's interesting to see how his early albums contain the classic prog sound (especially Silent Corner, Empty Stage), and evolve, adopting and assimilating external influences - notably "Nadir's Big Chance" and "Black Box".

Maani wrote:

Ivan: I disagree with your assessment.  It would seem petulant to claim that the loss of Pater Gabriel somehow changed Genesis from "prog" to "neo-prog."  Are you claiming that Gabriel was solely responsible for their being "prog?"  That is a pretty bizarre interpretation. Genesis remained "prog" despite the loss of Gabriel, and TOTT and W&W (especially) remain classifiable as "prog" albums, not "neo-prog" albums.

No Maani, I don’t consider ATOTT Neo just because Peter left, that would be petulant as you say, and in this case I’m not being petulant.

My reason is closer to what Cesar Mendoza writes a few posts after yours,

Cesar Mendoza wrote:

Neo is a label that refers to bands that make a specially refined and "soft" refurbishment of the most melodic side of classic symphonic prog.

AToTT is a soft album, based in melodies rather than in solos or atmospheres, it´s also much more radio friendly than any previous Genesis album.

The short songs are based in fairy stories and the solos (even though they are great) are clearly less dark and baroque than the ones from the Gabriel Years.

Pretty melodies as Entangled, Ripples and A Trick of the Tail are too naive to be considered symphonic prog' (I love those tracks, don't misunderstand me please) and others as Squonk and Robbery are too simple compared to the classical Genesis (Love the RA&B keyboard solo).

The only tracks that follow the classic Genesis sound are Dance on a Volcano, Mad Man Moon and Los Endos.

Wind & Wuthering on the other hand is clearly more symphonic and the songs have the classical structure and the drama  of Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme.

A Trick of the Tale is a great album but it’s clearly transitional between Symphonic and Neo Prog’ while Wind & Wuthering is a return to the roots, much more aggressive and dark than the previous.

I'm not the only one to believe this, when I read it in Progressor I was surprised but after a trime I thought they were partially right.

I don't say ATOTT is 100% Neo album, but surely is in the border between Symphonic Prog and Neo Prog.

Iván 

ivan_2068 wrote: Maani wrote: Ivan: I disagree with your assessment.  It would seem petulant to claim that the loss of Pater Gabriel somehow changed Genesis from "prog" to "neo-prog."  Are you claiming that Gabriel was solely responsible for their being "prog?"  That is a pretty bizarre interpretation. Genesis remained "prog" despite the loss of Gabriel, and TOTT and W&W (especially) remain classifiable as "prog" albums, not "neo-prog" albums. No Maani, I don’t consider ATOTT Neo just because Peter left, that would be petulant as you say, and in this case I’m not being petulant. My reason is closer to what Cesar Mendoza writes a few posts after yours,   Cesar Mendoza wrote: Neo is a label that refers to bands that make a specially refined and "soft" refurbishment of the most melodic side of classic symphonic prog.   AToTT is a soft album, based in melodies rather than in solos or atmospheres, it´s also much more radio friendly than any previous Genesis album. The short songs are based in fairy stories and the solos (even though they are great) are clearly less dark and baroque than the ones from the Gabriel Years. Pretty melodies as Entangled, Ripples and A Trick of the Tail are too naive to be considered symphonic prog' (I love those tracks, don't misunderstand me please) and others as Squonk and Robbery are too simple compared to the classical Genesis (Love the RA&B keyboard solo).   The only tracks that follow the classic Genesis sound are Dance on a Volcano, Mad Man Moon and Los Endos.   Wind & Wuthering on the other hand is clearly more symphonic and the songs have the classical structure and the drama  of Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme. A Trick of the Tale is a great album but it’s clearly transitional between Symphonic and Neo Prog’ while Wind & Wuthering is a return to the roots, much more aggressive and dark than the previous.   I'm not the only one to believe this, when I read it in Progressor I was surprised but after a trime I thought they were partially right.   I don't say ATOTT is 100% Neo album, but surely is in the border between Symphonic Prog and Neo Prog.   Iván

I find ATOTT more jazz (fusion) than neo prog

Maybe I shouls have been more specific:

Neo is a label that refers to bands that make a specially refined and "soft" refurbishment of the most melodic side of classic symphonic prog... with an added touch of post-punk, new wave, and occasionally some hints of AOR but a bit less pompous than your average AOR band (Journey, Foreigner).

Given that, I can only disagree on considering Genesis' 'A Trick of the Tail' something like a preccursor of neo-prog. The material in this album is too jazzy for a neo-prog album: just pay a close listen to 'Dance...', 'Robbery...' and 'Los Endos', then you'll know what I mean. The stuff in 'Ripples' and 'Entangled' is so disturbingly emotional and dense that I can harfly understand what some people say anout ATOTT being "soft". 

Does it make Camel's 'Moonmadness' and 'Rain Dances' neo-prog too? Does it apply to ELP's 'Works Vol. 1' too? I think that a couple of TLLDOB tracks are more similar to your average early neo-prog than any stuff from ATOTT or W&W, since 'Cpunting Out Time', 'Lilywhile Lilith' and 'back in NYC' are clearly raw, urgent, and quite rocky (of course, with a deep progressive essence). But again, I wouldn't label it as a preccursor of neo-prog (I wouldn't label Homer or Eurypides preccursors of post-modernist literature either).

Without any slight touch of the raw urgent pop sound delivered by the postpunk-newromantic-newwave sound, I can hardly be satisfied by the fact that an album is allegedly soft... then voilà, it's neo-prog!!!

Jade Warrior's albums are not exactly aggressive, nor are those by Gryphon and Anthony Phillips, and half the repertoire of 75-76 Gentle Giant --- are they neo-prog, too?   

Regards.  

Cesar Inca wrote:

The material in this album is too jazzy for a neo-prog album: just pay a close listen to 'Dance...', 'Robbery...' and 'Los Endos'

I wrote:

The only tracks that follow the classic Genesis sound are Dance on a Volcano, Mad Man Moon and Los Endos.

At least we agree in some tracks, I also believe the tracks mentioned probably also Robbery Assault and Battery are clearly prog', but the soft melodies of Entangled, Ripples and A Trick of the Tail, despite the disturbing lyrics, are a clear example of a simpler form of symphonic prog, in other words Neo Prog.

I only find the jazz fussion connection in the drumming by Phil Collins because we all know he was formed (and love) jazz and also Motown, his style was always jazzy, but the music in the album is very far from fussion IMHO.

But again, don't misunderstand me, I love ATOTT, maybe less than W&W (With the exception of Your Own Special Way which sucks), but this doesn't make it a tipycal symphonic album, again IMO has a lot of Neo Prog.

Iván

"... the soft melodies of Entangled, Ripples and A Trick of the Tail, despite the disturbing lyrics, are a clear example of a simpler form of symphonic prog, in other words Neo Prog."

My friend Iván, I thought I had managed to make myself clear earlier. It's not enough to be "soft" to be neo: if so, Gryphon, Jade Warrior and Camel would be neo, too. And so would be Neuschwenstein, 77-79 Eloy, Starcastle...   SOFT + MELODIC does not equal NEO. 

The fact is that your own personal scheme about Genesis' history includes the idea that they were precursors of neo-prog for what they did in ATOTT: so, you want to "make" it a neo-prog album no matter what...

In a previous message, I explicitly mentioned the late 70s-early 80s British pop scene (Post-punk, new romantics,new wave, even techono-pop), AOR, and now I add some funky stuff, as crucial ingredients of neo-prog. Once again, I know different people have different ideas about things, but I don't know how one can dismiss the jazz factor in ATOTT and not regard its featured place in this album's overall sound and song arrangements. Some neo-prog drummers were educated in a jazz environment (Ian Mosley, Paul Cook from IQ, Pendragon's first drummer whose name I've just forgotten), yet they didn't take those influences too far in their input to their respective bands, just because the rhythm section was supposed to be handled in a more straight and directly rock-oriented manner --- which doesn't mean that it had to be simplistic, of course -----.   Is that what anyone can find in the rhythm section all throughout ATOTT? Straight rhythm patterns and an absence of jazz fusionesque foundations?

Regards.