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Desoc View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Suggestion: Discuss reviews on review page
    Posted: February 20 2009 at 05:56

Progarchives quite definitely belongs to what is called Web 2.0 - with user-generated content and dynamic structures. But discussions regarding the content is restricted to this forum, which I believe it is right to say that only very few of the regular users participate in.

How about including a function where we allow users to make comments on each single review? The reviews are a pillar for the site, and this would increase their relevance even more, and make the site even more dynamic, also to the users outside the forum. It would make reviews more like blog-posts - in the spirit of social media.
 
Granted, there would have to be a system for editing and reporting inappropriate comments, but there isn't exactly a lack of people to do this job, is there?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 07:21
It has been proposed before. I personally don't think it would be that beneficial. We have a lot of minds present on this site, many of them not sharing the same opinions. There's a big risk of agressive comments, when the review contains arguments of the opposite kind, when low ratings are awarded for some albums, when the reviews are poorly-written etc.

Plus, the focus is on the album, given the purpose of the review itself. Additional comments would already mean focusing on the review, and further comments to the comments would lead things even farther.

Sorry, but I can't see the good in it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 07:27
If people were more mature and civilised than they generally are, I think it would be a great idea. Unfortunately, the reality of things is a bit different, and I can't even start to imagine the flamefests that would ensue. The mods' workload would increase a hundredfold to say the least.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 07:31
^ agreed. The same usually happens when reviews are discussed in the forum ... I guess that being able to rate reviews would suffice (like at Amazon.com, where you can simply say whether you found a review helpful or not).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 07:35
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

If people were more mature and civilised than they generally are, I think it would be a great idea.
 
The sad reality is that man is still a primitive being, and individuals of both sexes still find it worthwhile to roar and beat their chest with their fist - although in this day and age most people do so allegorically on the internet.
 
Comment field where everybody could comment on reviews would end up like a roar-fest, with people roaring out their preferences and beating on their own chests to show their power; inbetween trying to knock the competition to the ground with their allegorical fists.
 
Could quite clearly have entertainment value, the sites traffic would increase manyfold - but the overall cause of the site would be ruined forever methinks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 07:55
Well, those responses didn't exactly show great belief in mankind Wacko
 
I have a more positive view, and believe that when are people are given responsibility, they take responsibility. If Ricochet's and Raff's reservations were valid, then Wikipedia and just about every kind of social media would be a desolate wasteland of barbarians. We know they are not. That's the core of how the Internet is evolving these days.
 
I believe that making the reviews interactive could be the single most effective way of taking this site up one league, inspiring creative interactions that would make us way more appelling to new users.
 
The reviews are not made in a vacuum and should not be kept in a vacuum. Discussing them is the best way to achieve better understanding of the subject of which they are written. Hardly anybody gets so agitated about a review that they care to post a thread in the forum, and only a few get so inspired that they write a review of their own (and in my opinion, reviews should first and foremost be inspired by albums, not by other reviews). Creating interaction is a democratic way of making the content of the review more interesting, and thus the focus on the album is intact.
 
We're not afraid of discussion, are we? We're still devoted to democracy in our respective locations in the world?
 
Of course, some people will always step out of line and focus their critisism or comments on the reviewer rather than the review. So there should be a way of reporting discussions that go too far. But there's no evidence to support that this would be a problem with the majority, or even a large minority. I say again: Look at other social media. And there's no evidence to support that the mods' workload would "increase a hundredfold" or even close. Unless they aim to read every single discussion, which I really don't see why they would want to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 08:08
I am sorry to admit I have no great belief in mankind, but that's probably just a limitation of mine. In any case, I think your suggestion could be implemented for a trial period, which would probably help to prove either of our positions right. Anyway, I'll just say one thing before bowing out: if I stated what I did in my above post, I have reasons for that. I have been here for almost four years, and I know what kind of people can 'infest' (I apologise for the term) an Internet board.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 08:12
Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

Well, those responses didn't exactly show great belief in mankind Wacko


What's there to believe in? People are ungrateful and take what they want without thinking about consequences. Nice people are a rare exception.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 08:37
^ OMG, I'm surrounded by dystopians! How can people with such fine taste of music be so negative to the humanity that has granted them the same music?
 
Open your eyes, people. And ask yourselves: Are you better off today than your grandparents were? The answer - even if you're living in Africa - is yes with a probability rate of close to one. See through the vandals and watch the people making things grow and prosper. That's us. Who is the dominant force - here and elsewhere in society? Is the glass half-empty or half-full?
 
Well, that was off-topic rant if there ever was such a thing. But in sum: Yes to humanity. Yes to human creativity and freedom to prosper, challenge and evolve. Yes to dynamic reviews! Tongue
 
Good idea from Raff with a trial period!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 08:49
After being on the net for a bit over a decade now, my experience is that the possibility to be anonymous brings forth the worst in quite a few people - I have yet to see a net site opening up for general comments that hasn't been partially or wholly flooded with negative, aggressively stated opinion.

Wikipedia and similar sites are good because of -heavy- supervising, and a somewhat ponderous process in submitting data.

And there are a number of good reasons for most forums forcing the user to register.

One of them, which one would surely see a lot of if opening for general comments, are spam. Load, loads and loads of spam. And with the number of reviews to look after here, the amount of spam coming in that would have to be deleted would be enormous.

If you are web savvy, try opening a page, setting up a system for anyone to enter data and fill the page with content that makes it relatively easy discoverable by search engines - and watch events unfold ;-)
Websites I work with:

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 08:52
Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

Yes to humanity. Yes to human creativity and freedom to prosper, challenge and evolve. Yes to dynamic reviews! Tongue
 
Good idea from Raff with a trial period!

Who will notice these dynamic reviews? 
If you post your review, it is shown for some time on the main page.
If you discuss some review in the forum, the thread becomes active and visitors see it. 
If you post a comment to one of thousands of reviews - no one sees it.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 08:56
Okay, I don't have great hope in mankind (genetically inherited from Raff LOL), I'm a dystopian (not really), etc., but we'd better not follow this path in our discussion (the off-topic rant Tongue).

I still believe that, despite a better interaction provided between site members (or is it visitors? - they usually outnumber the forum members), the focus on the album that's reviewed would loosen. And there's a slight overburden of the entire practically and aesthetically-built reviews page itself: imagine Close To The Edge having not just 600 reviews, but 40-50 comments on each review? Am I too pessimistic hearing "malfunction"? "The reviews are not made in a vacuum and should not be kept in a vacuum", indeed, but they're still the most direct way to focus on an album - and to make it the important subject of all. Blog-like interaction usually works ideally on the same thing - a subject initially discussed by someone, but ultimately discussed by all who replied. In this case, it's the reviewer who stands (I'm almost tempted to say trialed) regarded by the commenters.

Further on, like Windhawk implied, there are arguments and arguments. Personally, I'm not enchanted by the "nice writing" short-like positive comments as much as I hate to predict thousand of "you suck" nasty comments. And replies such as " X is my favorite rather than this one" are of almost no worth. I wish moreover for these comments' utility to consist out of valuable corrections, extra info offered or...intrinsic commenting into the details with which the original reviewer approched the subject. That could work, yet it just won't happen in everybody's case. The profit of this function will, thus, be slimmer than we'd hope.




Edited by Ricochet - February 20 2009 at 08:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 09:13
Hope for the best, expect the worst ... that's kind of my motto at least when it comes to internet users. Based on quite some experience in web application development and administration, I've come to not hope for too much anymore.Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 11:58
Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

^ OMG, I'm surrounded by dystopians! How can people with such fine taste of music be so negative to the humanity that has granted them the same music?
 
 
Because usually the people that granted us that music was egomaniac people who didn't give a damn about anything else but the crazy ideas they had in their mind and put them in records....
 
Music is actually a symptom of the illness of man's eternal individualism. And thank somebody for that! But really... musicians seldom create their art for altruistic purposes....
 
After such a devation, please... continue with this good idea that I support.... I'm all for people being allowed to comment on reviews....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 12:10
Stay away from my DT reviews (If I ever do any).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 12:15
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

^ OMG, I'm surrounded by dystopians! How can people with such fine taste of music be so negative to the humanity that has granted them the same music?
Because usually the people that granted us that music was egomaniac people who didn't give a damn about anything else but the crazy ideas they had in their mind and put them in records....
 
Music is actually a symptom of the illness of man's eternal individualism. And thank somebody for that! But really... musicians seldom create their art for altruistic purposes....
How can people on the internet be misanthropic!? It's almost as if there is a reason they are on the internet...and not outside. ;-)
 
Quote After such a devation, please... continue with this good idea that I support.... I'm all for people being allowed to comment on reviews....
I can't say I really see the point. Rating reviews could help sort out the exceptional ones on albums that have far too many reviews, but I doubt that anybody besides the reviewer would read the comments. And the reviewer probably wouldn't even bother to do that unless s/he is shallow and egotistical like me, but that's not something we want to encourage.

I would, however, like to see more discussion and criticism of reviews in the forums. That would be a good avenue of growth in improved reviewer writing because even if people read all the comments, nobody is ever going to care what some random user with 3 reviews thinks about your review.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 12:19
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:


And there are a number of good reasons for most forums forcing the user to register.

One of them, which one would surely see a lot of if opening for general comments, are spam. Load, loads and loads of spam. And with the number of reviews to look after here, the amount of spam coming in that would have to be deleted would be enormous.
 
But I haven't suggested that we should open articles for anyone that isn't registrered. I find it natural that you should register before discussing. But I want to open the review page itself for discussions, and not expect that anyone with an opinion should find their way into the appropriate thread in the forum.
 
But even if we did open it completely, the spam problem is easily solved with filters. This is 2009.
 
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:


Who will notice these dynamic reviews? 
If you post your review, it is shown for some time on the main page.
If you discuss some review in the forum, the thread becomes active and visitors see it. 
If you post a comment to one of thousands of reviews - no one sees it.
 
Now I feel we're getting close to constructing problems for problem's sake. The point with discussing reviews would mainly be communicating with the reviewer and other people with a particular interest in this album or band. If I posted a review (will soon start to do that) to an album by the newly added band Gåte, my aim would be to discuss with other people enjoying Gåte, not primarily people enjoying Pendragon or Atheist. Of course - if a "most discussed" or "recently discussed" box is added to the front page or somewhere, that would be a nice touch, but not necessary.
 
Look outside: How is this done elsewhere? Is it a problem for people discussing narrow videos on YouTube that they aren't featured on the front page? No.
 
As for discussing a review in the Forum, I maintain my case that the Forum has a high threshold for people to enter. And that it significantly more work lurking into a forum, looking through all the lounges, finding the appropriate thread, being yelled at by experienced forum participants for posting in the wrong thread, etc, etc, than it is to simply post your initial reactions underneath the review.
 
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

imagine Close To The Edge having not just 600 reviews, but 40-50 comments on each review? Am I too pessimistic hearing "malfunction"?
 
Do you seriously think that would be a problem?
 
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

"The reviews are not made in a vacuum and should not be kept in a vacuum", indeed, but they're still the most direct way to focus on an album - and to make it the important subject of all. Blog-like interaction usually works ideally on the same thing - a subject initially discussed by someone, but ultimately discussed by all who replied. In this case, it's the reviewer who stands (I'm almost tempted to say trialed) regarded by the commenters.

So what are we down to? You not being fond of the idea of getting challenged by an imbecile on your well-crafted reviews? Wink

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Further on, like Windhawk implied, there are arguments and arguments. Personally, I'm not enchanted by the "nice writing" short-like positive comments as much as I hate to predict thousand of "you suck" nasty comments. And replies such as " X is my favorite rather than this one" are of almost no worth. I wish moreover for these comments' utility to consist out of valuable corrections, extra info offered or...intrinsic commenting into the details with which the original reviewer approched the subject. That could work, yet it just won't happen in everybody's case. The profit of this function will, thus, be slimmer than we'd hope.
 
But if there's indeed a profit, why not try?
 
After all, you don't have to read all the short replies that you don't fancy? Why not simply enjoy the valuable corrections and extra info offered or intrinsic commenting into details that we apparently agree will be offered, and ignore the fill? 
 
^ This is exactly what creates content. And ideas, and music, when it comes down to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 12:20
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

^ OMG, I'm surrounded by dystopians! How can people with such fine taste of music be so negative to the humanity that has granted them the same music?
Because usually the people that granted us that music was egomaniac people who didn't give a damn about anything else but the crazy ideas they had in their mind and put them in records....
 
Music is actually a symptom of the illness of man's eternal individualism. And thank somebody for that! But really... musicians seldom create their art for altruistic purposes....
How can people on the internet be misanthropic!? It's almost as if there is a reason they are on the internet...and not outside. ;-)  You've said it... Wink
 
Quote After such a devation, please... continue with this good idea that I support.... I'm all for people being allowed to comment on reviews....
I can't say I really see the point. Rating reviews could help sort out the exceptional ones on albums that have far too many reviews, but I doubt that anybody besides the reviewer would read the comments. And the reviewer probably wouldn't even bother to do that unless s/he is shallow and egotistical like me,Or like me (to a lesser degree) or like most of us... Who writes reviews without wanting them to be read? What REAL purpose could reviews have in the world? At least 50% of people I'm sure write reviews thinking only in themselves.... not possible cd purchasers  but that's not something we want to encourage.

I would, however, like to see more discussion and criticism of reviews in the forums. That would be a good avenue of growth in improved reviewer writing because even if people read all the comments, nobody is ever going to care what some random user with 3 reviews thinks about your review.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 12:33
Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

 
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

imagine Close To The Edge having not just 600 reviews, but 40-50 comments on each review? Am I too pessimistic hearing "malfunction"?
 
Do you seriously think that would be a problem?


Yes, why not? Maybe not a problem, but something too much nonetheless. Is it really necesarry?
 
Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

"The reviews are not made in a vacuum and should not be kept in a vacuum", indeed, but they're still the most direct way to focus on an album - and to make it the important subject of all. Blog-like interaction usually works ideally on the same thing - a subject initially discussed by someone, but ultimately discussed by all who replied. In this case, it's the reviewer who stands (I'm almost tempted to say trialed) regarded by the commenters.

So what are we down to? You not being fond of the idea of getting challenged by an imbecile on your well-crafted reviews? Wink


I wasn't talking about myself in any of the comments I made.
And we already established that the case of "an imbecile challenging well-crafted reviews" is a form of agressiveness, abuse. (And that there's a good chance more than half of the comments to be in this style).

I'm still talking about the fact that the attention is drawn from the album towards the review that was written and/or towards how that person wrote the review. The ideal situation is when both the reviewer and the commenter keep focusing on the album, sharing ideas, infos, expressing opinions. But this kind of sharing already happens on the forum, in every appreciation thread, as well as in various polls and threads, opened to discuss albums, music etc. 

Originally posted by Desoc Desoc wrote:

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Further on, like Windhawk implied, there are arguments and arguments. Personally, I'm not enchanted by the "nice writing" short-like positive comments as much as I hate to predict thousand of "you suck" nasty comments. And replies such as " X is my favorite rather than this one" are of almost no worth. I wish moreover for these comments' utility to consist out of valuable corrections, extra info offered or...intrinsic commenting into the details with which the original reviewer approched the subject. That could work, yet it just won't happen in everybody's case. The profit of this function will, thus, be slimmer than we'd hope.
 
But if there's indeed a profit, why not try?
 
After all, you don't have to read all the short replies that you don't fancy? Why not simply enjoy the valuable corrections and extra info offered or intrinsic commenting into details that we apparently agree will be offered, and ignore the fill? 
 
^ This is exactly what creates content. And ideas, and music, when it comes down to it.
[/QUOTE]

Those valuable things will be offered by 1 out of 10 people. Is this a good profit?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2009 at 12:40
Just for the record: I don't particularly like being called 'dystopian'. On the contrary, when I first meet a person I always tend to see the good in them, and this unfortunately has led me to a lot of disappointment, even serious suffering in the past. Having lived almost 50 years on this planet, I've seen the good and the bad, and I know how mean and cruel people can be. I visit two other sites fairly regularly, and both are based on much  more 'serious' issues than music, and the level of verbal violence and abuse sometimes is astounding. If some of you who are so optimistic about human nature saw what I've seen there, perhaps you would feel less secure in your beliefs.
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