Phil Collins - Is He Any Good?

Pixel Pirate wrote: but on "Five Miles Out" the commercial beast started to rear it's extremely ugly head in the guise of "Family Man" and from that moment he produced a string of bewildering and frustrating albums that had some brilliant moments but mostly awful ones except for "Earth Moving" which was completely awful with no redeeming features and was the lowest point in his entire career,and would have been in anyone else's too I suspect! Even "Big Generator" sounds like a bonafide masterpiece compared to that one! But all was forgiven when the amazing "Amarok" was released and I realised that the real Mike Oldfield had finally returned.

Mmmm... I think the type of prog records Oldfield proposed in the 80s was the only one wich was succesfull. Beginning with Crisis (and announced with Five Miles Out) the one side a prog composition and the other side a buch of very good pop songs mold was the only way a prog artist could keep on doing prog and sell really a lot of records. Let's not forget what Yes and Genesis were doing (good rock/pop songs, almost some hints of prog) and the fact that other groups were completly obliterated (think about Gentle Giant or ELP).

It's true that Earth Moving was a low point, because he dropped the prog side maybe due to pressures from Virgin (so he says), but it was a comercial disaster. But 'Heaven's Open' is often considered to be the worst Oldfield record, and I agree (even it features the title song, my favourite Oldfield pop track). And it is more of a shame, since this one was the last record for Virgin and he could have done whatever he had wanted to. Insted of that, four out of five pop songs were not very good, and the side long prog track was a poor man's Amarok.

His career in Warner is another very strange period. And this story should be told in another moment...

Pixel Pirate wrote: "Music From The Balcony" is reviled by many of Mike's fans,I know but I think it's excellent. Poor man's "Amarok"? Perhaps,but that's fine by me! He did say about his 80's albums that they contained things that he wanted to do and things the record company wanted him to do. In other words, "Crises" is what he wanted and "Moonlight Shadow" is what the record company wanted. But trying to please the pop crowd and the prog crowd simultaneously didn't work,it just created confusion in both camps. The prog fans didn't like the pop stuff and the pop fans didn't like the prog stuff,he wound up satisfying no one but his bank manager.

I like some things from 'Music from the Balcony', specially the climax. But overall is not up to Amarok. Anyway, a failed Mike Oldfield song is usually better than most. (I'm a fan, in case no one noticed it...)

I don't think the pop/prog blending didn't work. 'Crises' and 'Islands' were, as far as I remember, huge succeses. I remember talking to friends about Islands (I was too young when Crises came), and everybody was buying it on the strenght of the singles. Then people seemed to be pleased with the prog track. You see, normal record buyers didn't dissmis it as a 'prog, self indulgent, etc' thing... in part, 'cause prog was long gone. They just listened to a record that had a very long instrumental track, that was rather pleasant. Let's not forget that Oldfield's kind of prog is rather friendly for non-proggers (in fact, most of Oldfield fans I know are not proggers or they doesn't know what the hell is that).

It's the same thing I remember happened when I was at high school and several soundtrack records mainly made of score music started being bought by teenager because of a single. Even people into 'C&C Music Factory' could tell me: I bought 'Ghost'/'Dracula' and I enjoyed it. And we are talking about two VERY hard scores to listen on CD. After that, they just kept on buying that day's success, because most of the people just listen to what is on the radio and they doesn't try to dig in other things they may  have liked.

And, by the way, Phil Collins is a good pop composer. When he stays away from drum machines.

About Genesis: forgive what? They gave you Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, SEBTP, TLLDOB, TOTT, and you are still unhappy?? Do not tell me you are expecting a comeback from Genesis' members???

Richardh wrote:

And nothing they did post 1978 was as bad as ELP's 'In The Hot Seat'

I strongly disagree, "In tyhe Hot Seat" has a respectable version of Pictures at an Exhibition (that pays the album), and even if the rest of the tracks are not good, you can listen some of the old ELP sound there.

Genesis after Duke has no echoes of the glorious past (even when I hate ATTW3 and Duke also) after this already bad album, Genesis is nothing more than Phil Collins with his favorite session musicians (Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford), any later Genesis album sounds exactly the same to No Jackett Required or Tarzan soundtrack, all terribly boring POP of the worst kind.

Some Genesis fans comfort theselves saying that later Genesis was better than all the mainstream of the 80's, I don't agree, being better than crappy third class bands means nothing, even the terrible 90125 or the infamous  Big Generator are better than any later Genesis album.

Iván

I'm not afraid of POP, some Eagles songs are very good, Fleetwood Mac is one of my favorite bands, Jackson Browne has a lot of talent, and some more artists did a great job even if I consider POP a money making bussines and not a form of art. but there's good and bad POP.

Honestly I don't like 90% of POP, but it's even worst when it's boring, plain, dull, and that's what Genesis did after W&W (With a few exeptions in ATTW3 and Duke).

Genesis tracks from that era can be heard in hospitals and elevators because that kind of music is only valid as MUZAK..

All Genesis tracks after Duke sound exactly the same, soft lame ballads and terrible repetitive songs like Invisible Touch, and please don't forget the aberration called Who Dunnit?

Give me good POP and I'll appreciate it and even enjoy it, but don't try to make me believe Collins/Genesis ballads are good.

Iván

Easy Livin wrote: I won't even try to defend the way Genesis degenerated from a top prog outfit into a hit single chasing pop group, however... For me they never completely gave up on their prog roots. You don't have to look too hard to find what I consider to be excellent prog tracks on many of their albums after "Wind and Wuthering". "And then there were three" I enjoy greatly, even though the tracks were generally shorter and more straight forward. "Burning rope" is a very under rated track. "Duke" had the excellent "Duke's travels".  "Ababcab", OK you got me with that one! "Genesis" had "Home by the sea", surely that was worthwhile! "Invisible touch", OK got me again, "Domino" was passible, but I'm "Clutching at straws". "We can't dance" had "Fading lights" which featured a superb long instrumental break, plus "Dreaming while you sleep" and "Driving the last spike". "Calling all stations", (post Collins) was a missed opportunity, but was generally more rock than pop. Even live, "The way we walk 2" showed they could and did still do prog right to the end.

I agree with all that.