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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 11:31 |
angelmk wrote:
ok guys, i agree it's fair to support the artist by buying the original. But what should be done in cases where to say for the peolple who don't have enough money to buy album, should one stop listening to music, becouse is not ethical to download one for free? ex. wages in average in macedonia are to say about 250 euros , and one album is to say about 20 euros , so one simply cannot afford one .
i know you will tear me appart with my statement , but i had to say, although at first i said to myself not to involve in this discussion ,
it is neverending. |
Please be real, we're talking about music, which is not vital, there's `people who doesn't have enough to eat or to buy medicines and they don't steal and you are worrying for a person who can't listen his favorite artist.
I remember a few years ago, in Lima., something happened, there was a crisis, and there's a group of people who leave in Casuarinas, a high Middle class zone, this people have huge gardens and live in a mountain but in the back there is a Pueblo Joven (ghetto).
So when somebody prepared a wedding of his/her Son/daughter, this people from the ghetto invaded the house with loudspeakers shouting "We are no going to rob your houses, we are only taking the food because we don't have to eat".
This people was searching for food, but still they were arrested for stealing and property violation, nobody will die for not listening Genesis, but the silly concept of "music must be free" (As if musicians had to starve for our pleasure) has turned people in dishonest.
There are things I want or need but I can't afford, I won't say..."Hey what do you want I can't pay for a plasma TV, so I can steal one."
I'm not talking of anti ethical, stealing is a felony, but I won't tell you don't do it, if you want, do it, but please don't share your experiences in Prog Archives, because we have rules, and if you get caught, it's your problem.
We want to keep this site open and we could have problems if we are listed as a site that allows downloading, so do what you want with your PC but keep it for you, we don't want to know it, that's all we ask.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 16 2009 at 11:33
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 11:35 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
GO OUT AND BUY THE RECORDS. IF THEY`RE NOT AVAILABLE THEN THEY`RE NOT AVAILABLE.
We`re talking about people`s livelihoods here. Plain and simple, downloading is theft.
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If I were to hypothetically Maudlin of the Well albums, whose livelihood would I be hurting? Toby Driver is still recording and people are still buying Kayo Dot albums, and MOTW is OOP and defunct.
Edited by Henry Plainview - February 16 2009 at 12:09
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 11:38 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Nope, one of the fundamental aspects that can make society function is a justice system that replaces vigilante justice (whether or not this is required for society or not is a different matter, though I would say it is), therefore it is objectively unethical for the anti-abortion person (let's not cloud the discussion with incriminating terms like fundamentalist) to kill a doctor who practices abortion. |
one of the fundamental aspects that can make society function is a justice system that guaranntees your property and your rights will be respected.
BTW: As a Catholic I'm anti-abortionist (Except in case of rape or therapeutic abortion or terminal illness of the phoetus), but yes, I call anybody who kills a doctor because he practices abortion a fanatic fundamentalist.
Iván
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 11:50 |
I'm quite certain most people lucky enough to have been born in richer countries (like
myself, not you, Ivan) would have a different perspective on things if they were
the ones earning 250 euros a month.
Vibrationbaby wrote:
I haven`t read down the thread because I don`t have that much time to
spend on the site due to business obligations but here`s my two cents,
and I`ve stated this before on similar threads.
GO OUT AND BUY THE RECORDS. IF THEY`RE NOT AVAILABLE THEN THEY`RE NOT AVAILABLE.
We`re talking about people`s livelihoods here. Plain and simple, downloading is theft.
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Maybe you should read some. If
our macedonian friend here stopped downloading, it would only have the
effect that he would not be able to listen to music. No musician would
earn anything. And why would you have a problem if someone
downloads an album that's out of print? What business of yours is that?
Why do you care? ("because Its illegal" is not an answer)
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 11:51 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
Nope, one of the fundamental aspects that can make society function is a justice system that replaces vigilante justice (whether or not this is required for society or not is a different matter, though I would say it is), therefore it is objectively unethical for the anti-abortion person (let's not cloud the discussion with incriminating terms like fundamentalist) to kill a doctor who practices abortion. |
one of the fundamental aspects that can make society function is a justice system that guaranntees your property and your rights will be respected. |
I agree. This is why the debate should be about the nature of your rights. While a society must respect some form of right to property, there is not one set model of property rights that is ethical (with all others being unethical).
BTW: As a Catholic I'm anti-abortionist (Except in case of rape or therapeutic abortion or terminal illness of the phoetus), but yes, I call anybody who kills a doctor because he practices abortion a fanatic fundamentalist. |
If they honestly view it as murder, then it is a simple case of vigilante justice.
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 12:07 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
angelmk wrote:
ok guys, i agree it's fair to support the artist by buying the original. But what should be done in cases where to say for the peolple who don't have enough money to buy album, should one stop listening to music, becouse is not ethical to download one for free? ex. wages in average in macedonia are to say about 250 euros , and one album is to say about 20 euros , so one simply cannot afford one .
i know you will tear me appart with my statement , but i had to say, although at first i said to myself not to involve in this discussion ,
it is neverending. |
1. Please be real, we're talking about music, which is not vital, there's `people who doesn't have enough to eat or to buy medicines and they don't steal and you are worrying for a person who can't listen his favorite artist.
2. We want to keep this site open and we could have problems if we are listed as a site that allows downloading, so do what you want with your PC but keep it for you, we don't want to know it, that's all we ask.
Iván |
1. music is to vital for me, cannot breath without listening few albums a day , and those who starve, this is another thing. without music is like starvation to me,even worse. 2 . Fair enough.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 13:12 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
The same is true on the Internet - there is information on your PC that villains want and they are continually trying to steal it - even people who download protect themselves from being robbed. |
Yes, I agree with that last sentence, well, going by that, the onus then is on the industry to protect itself from illegal downloads, no? |
And they do (eg DRM) and every time they try something new someone will cry foul and claim their rights have been infringed by the cold impersonal money-grabbing multinationals because they can't transfer the CD to their iPod.
rogerthat wrote:
Wonder what would have happened if CDs had not been invented and we had been 'stuck' with vinyl. Sure, there are vinyl rips available but they are much harder to come by and it's obviously not as easy to convert as a CD. Anyone with a good media player can convert audio CDs to mp3, on the other hand.
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Anything can be ripped (vinyl isn't that difficult - tedious and time consuming, but not difficult) and protected digital data can be cracked - sure, some people downloading would prefer loss-free FLAC files, (though I've said this time and time again - music ripped from CD can never be better than 16-bit 44KHz - upscaling does not put back lost data, but never mind - that's a different argument), most are happy with average quality mp3s, however even an mp3 ripped from vinyl is evidently acceptable, which is evident from the number of people who have voted for Option 2, which I assume would include downloads for 'never released on CD' albums.
And on the subject of the silly prices for OOP CDs and vinyls - that's simply supply and demand - if no one was prepared to pay the price then no one would be able to sell them at the prices they charge. I've bid for not-so rare vinyls on eBay and watched in amazement as the bids spiral away to stupid numbers long after I've dropped out. I wasn't prepared to pay the price so I never got the disc - poor me - I'll go back to rummaging through the thrift shops and secondhand record stores - which is far more satisfying when you find a real gem anyway.
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What?
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 13:14 |
angelmk wrote:
ok guys, i agree it's fair to support the artist by buying the original. But what should be done in cases where to say for the peolple who don't have enough money to buy album, should one stop listening to music, becouse is not ethical to download one for free? ex. wages in average in macedonia are to say about 250 euros , and one album is to say about 20 euros , so one simply cannot afford one . i know you will tear me appart with my statement , but i had to say, although at first i said to myself not to involve in this discussion , it is neverending. |
I don't have a problem when people download illegally in that situation. Of course you could accuse me of being inconsistent, but it can't be helped ... different situations may require different approaches.
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 11401
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 13:38 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I don't have a problem when people download illegally in that situation. Of course you could accuse me of being inconsistent, but it can't be helped ... different situations may require different approaches.
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Well, on that matter - one aspect of life that illegal downloading have next to eradicated are what was once known as pirates. People selling copied music on cassettes (later CD-R's) for prices poor (or tight) people could buy at the fraction of the price in the retail shops. A phenomenon officially frowned upon by the record companies, but often overlooked by them in parts of the world where most people couldn't afford to buy the real thing (where getting an official release rather than a copy in some cultures became something of a status symbol). These days those peddlers of illegal goods are a rare sight. Not totally eradicated, but there aren't as many of them around anymore.
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com
My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:02 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
angelmk wrote:
ok guys, i agree it's fair to support the artist by buying the original. But what should be done in cases where to say for the peolple who don't have enough money to buy album, should one stop listening to music, becouse is not ethical to download one for free? ex. wages in average in macedonia are to say about 250 euros , and one album is to say about 20 euros , so one simply cannot afford one . i know you will tear me appart with my statement , but i had to say, although at first i said to myself not to involve in this discussion , it is neverending. |
I don't have a problem when people download illegally in that situation. Of course you could accuse me of being inconsistent, but it can't be helped ... different situations may require different approaches.
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Thumbs up to you for being an inconsistant human being!
Dean wrote:
And on the subject of the silly prices for OOP CDs and vinyls - that's simply supply and demand - |
No one is saying or thinking otherwise. I know I'm not.
But the only possible reasons for buying such an album are all
egocentrical (unless you're going to make a rip and share, that is). It
has nothing to to with supporting the artist.
Like most, I'd like to have my whole collection 100% original. A vinylrip
can sound just fine, but is only good enough when its the only
option available.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:14 |
Dean wrote:
Anything can be ripped (vinyl isn't that difficult - tedious and time consuming, but not difficult) a |
Without fail, every time I've made a CD from an old vinyl, going to the trouble to scan in and make my own CD booklet from the original cover art, it always gets released remastered on CD. Auuuugh!!!!
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:19 |
If your ethics aren't consistent, they aren't right.
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:28 |
If I choose not have ethics have I still made a choice? Do I have to credit Neal Peart for borrowing his borrowed (and trite) cliche? I vote "Mercy for me and justice for everyone else."
Edited by Trademark - February 16 2009 at 14:30
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:35 |
Pnoom! wrote:
If your ethics aren't consistent, they aren't right.
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Being inconsistent is not necessarily inconsistant.
Edited by Rocktopus - February 16 2009 at 14:41
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:37 |
The simple fact of the matter is that downloading anything that is not up for legal download is an infringement to intellectual copyrights. Someone worked to create something and you're taking it for free. It's the same as stealing bread from a baker.
Any other "reasons" that people might have are simple ways of validating theft for themselves.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:51 |
All I'm going to say is I better not catch someone pirating my hard and arduous work, or I will meet and greet this individual.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 14:54 |
Trademark wrote:
I'm dangerously close to being banned for simply stating my opinions so I'd better stay out of this thread altogether.
Whoops! |
It's not what you say - your posts are usually well worth reading, it's HOW you say it.
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 15:04 |
Pnoom! wrote:
If your ethics aren't consistent, they aren't right.
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this is better trolling than "you wouldn't download a car"
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 16:02 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Dean wrote:
And on the subject of the silly prices for OOP CDs and vinyls - that's simply supply and demand - |
No one is saying or thinking otherwise. I know I'm not.
But the only possible reasons for buying such an album are all egocentrical (unless you're going to make a rip and share, that is). It has nothing to to with supporting the artist.
Like most, I'd like to have my whole collection 100% original. A vinylrip can sound just fine, but is only good enough when its the only option available.
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Maybe, maybe not - someone on the first page made a comment about Option 2 being preferable to paying someone $40 on eBay - you joined in this debate by saying that the artist earns nothing from a secondhand copy and buying it "will only give some random guy an absurd amount of money" ... the inference being that was justification enough for downloading the out of print copy (my only error, perhaps, is in assuming it is the high selling prices that are the problem).
The only reasons for wanting any music, whether legally or otherwise, is egocentric.
The fact the artist does not earn a penny from resales is irrelevant since the artist has already been paid for that particular copy, so the fact that secondhand CDs and vinyls do not support the artist is an irrelevant smoke-screen and has no relationship to unsolicited copies.
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What?
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 16:06 |
Dean wrote:
The only reasons for wanting any music, whether legally or otherwise, is egocentric.
The fact the artist does not earn a penny from resales is
irrelevant since the artist has already been paid for that particular
copy, so the fact that secondhand CDs and vinyls do not support the
artist is an irrelevant smoke-screen and has no relationship to
unsolicited copies. |
Its not at all irrelevant to me. And artists not getting paid has been one of the main arguments against illegal downloading, and that is an argument that sometimes is irrelevant (quite often with obscure prog and jazz).
Edited by Rocktopus - February 16 2009 at 16:11
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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