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Henry Plainview View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 16:56

Angelo wrote:

mrcozdude wrote:

Fripp what are you doing!?

Im going to hide my kc albums in the attic before my house gets raided by his goons.

Fripp's not doing very much these days - you revived a 9 month old thread Wink

(and after a quick scan of the responses - you were quite succesful at it as well....)

Internet rage is never finished, only deferred. ;-)

if you own a sodastream i hate you

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 17:03

TGM: Orb wrote:

Frankly, Fripp has no obligation to simply allow what is essentially unauthorised broadcasting. That the other bands you mentioned choose to, great!, but that doesn't change the fact that the artists/record labels have their work, and can choose not to let people broadcast it freely. To be honest, this move comes across as perfectly reasonable to me.

This is not a p2p site, this is a CRITICISM and REVIEW site protected under the canadiian laws and authorized to have samoples as Magazines, Newspapers and News Broadcastig stations.

The law works 2 ways, if an artist wants his copyrights to be protected, he will also respect the FREE INFORMATION rights.

If everybody acted like this, a TV News station couldn't inform partial images of a ball game, even if they don't adffect the integrity of the game, but they are allowed, as PA is allowed to give a complete information if we don't attempt against the integrity of the album.

As a fact a TV stations goes against ther integrity of a game, because they show the key strikes, the home runs, the runs, the crucial outs, while PA only places a song from a long career, but nobody questions their right...Why do they question our's?

I don't like piracy, i'm against it completely, but this is information, a totally different issue protectrd by Law and Constitutions.

Your suggested response is simply berkishness in reply to some perceived insult (which was, in my opinion, 100% reasonable anyway). And, coincidentally, it'd be crippling PA's reliability and value for no reason. Do the fans really have any reasonable grounds to expect to be allowed to keep up a few tracks? Personally, I don't think so.

It's not berkishness, it's simply being reasonable, if an artist enjoys the links provided by PA to sell their music, should also respect the rights to a fair deal according the laws (Read the Canadian Copyright Act that I quoted with a Supreme Court Resolution).

Nobody will keep a song, FREE STREAM doesn't work in that way, you can listen a track but not keep it, so this parragraph only reflects lack of knowledge of the law and the system.

Just to finish, use your logic, we are not talking about a POP hit single that has striong economic value by itself, we are talking about Progressive Rock, a genre based in ALBUMS and a song (not remotely a hit on it's day, much less 30 or 40 years after) doesn't has any value for a Prog listener.

Nobody will stop buying In the Court of the Crimson King only because they heard I Talk to the Wind.

But I'm not the owner, I only give my personal opinion.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 09 2009 at 17:53

TGM: Orb

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 18:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

This is not a p2p site, this is a CRITICISM and REVIEW site protected under the canadiian laws and authorized to have samoples as Magazines, Newspapers and News Broadcastig stations.

The law works 2 ways, if an artist wants his copyrights to be protected, he will also respect the FREE INFORMATION rights.

I don't like piracy, i'm agaionst it completely, but this is information, a complete different issue.

In this particular case, the artist involved simply does not want any free samples to be up. This is streaming complete songs. I am aware that PA is different to p2p or piracy. Nonetheless, as far as I can see, Fripp + co. are simply being consistent with their requests/demands to other sites.

Also, I really do think it's bad form to want to stream anything against the express wishes of the artist involved. First and foremost, this is a fan site. I'm not sure whether the legal argument would stand up (but I guess you've done your homework), but really, do we want to be a site that makes demands of the artists and goes in for petty squabbling?

(on the 'if everybody' paragraph... Not everyone does act like this, but I'm fairly sure that more people will if we send out the message that we won't respect an artist as much if they aren't comfortable with having their samples up here.)

Nobody will keep a song, FREE STREAM doesn't work in that way, you can listen a track but not keep it, so this parragraph only reflects lack of knowledge of the law and the system.

Just to finish, use yopyur logic, we are not talking about a POP hit single that has striong economic value by itself, we are talking about Progressive Rock, a genre based in ALBUMS and a song (not remotely a hit on it's day, much less 30 or 40 years after) doesn't has any value for a Prog listener.

It seems to me like berkishness to take particular measures to make an artist more difficult to investigate just because we feel snubbed by a lack of samples. As I said, this would be compromising PA considerably for the sake of petty feud about... that artist compromising PA (but only a tiny bit). I know that nobody will keep a song. Hence the up part of 'keep up' (and please, that jibe there, I do, at least, know what I'm saying). As in keeping up on the internet.

As for the prog-only-really-counts-when-in-an-album argument, it
A) varies for every listener (songs matter to me. I listen to individual songs every now and then)
B) varies according to the artists
and C) the artists have chosen to divide an album into smaller units, or produced smaller units which together constitute an album. Finally, lots of prog songs are really rather long, and consequently can end up being the most important or, at least, a very important part of an album.

Anyway, the important part is the ethos of it, not the law. If an artist doesn't want us to put up samples of their music, I think we should respect that. I don't think PA should make demands of the artists on the site. We shouldn't compromise PA's integrity just to get back at an artist for something that doesn't really matter.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 18:29

TGM: Orb wrote:

Also, I really do think it's bad form to want to stream anything against the express wishes of the artist involved. First and foremost, this is a fan site. I'm not sure whether the legal argument would stand up (but I guess you've done your homework), but really, do we want to be a site that makes demands of the artists and goes in for petty squabbling?

This is not a fan site, a fan site is a place devoted to an artist. This a REVIEW AND INFORMATION site, the forum is only a complement the main page we inform about bands that we love and also about the ones we dislike.

And it's not that i done my homework, I'm an attorney that has worked in copyright issues for almost two decades by now.

TGM: Orb wrote:

Anyway, the important part is the ethos of it, not the law. If an artist doesn't want us to put up samples of their music, I think we should respect that.

That's the difference from our perceptions........What if that same artist doesn't want newspapers to inform about a concert or a team doesn't want a TV station News program to show limited images of a game?

Do we have to accept it?

Would you say "Do we want to be anewspaper who makes demands of the artiosts, politicians, sportsmen and inform about them when they don't want?

I believe in the law, if an artist uses the law to protect their work (something to what they are entitled), then they should accept the consequences of the same law and respect the limitations decided by the legislator.

If you check, the artists use the Copyright act to protect their right, but exactly that same copyright Act grants a limit to their right named fair deal.

You can't decide I claim my right according to Part I, Copyright and Moral Rights But I don't want to accept the section referred to Exceptions Article 29.1 of the same Copyright Act, that's unmoral IMO, as a fact you don't decide to accept or not the laws, the laws are mandatory, but using a determined article of a determined law to protect your right and reject another article of the same law just because you don't like it, is going too far.

I don't care about the samples, I believe they are unnecessary, I care about the legal principle, because if we start ignoring the Free Information right with the excuse of individual rights protection, we will reach a point in which the sport teams, leagues and artists will say "I want newspaper "A" to inform about my game or show, but not Newspaper "B". The next day you have a subpoena for attempting against the freedom of information.

My point is the respect of Constitutional and moral rights, that's all.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 09 2009 at 18:44

mrcozdude

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 18:31

Henry Plainview wrote:

Angelo wrote:

mrcozdude wrote:

Fripp what are you doing!?

Im going to hide my kc albums in the attic before my house gets raided by his goons.

Fripp's not doing very much these days - you revived a 9 month old thread Wink

(and after a quick scan of the responses - you were quite succesful at it as well....)

Internet rage is never finished, only deferred. ;-)

No rage or anger,im just a little disapointed.You know the type which sounds worse from your parents.

Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 18:41

That's Right what Ivan says about the Law is Mandatory and coercitive but in a State of Right, the artist goes to the Law to protect thier work and that's fair, but at the same time that right have a limitation marked by the same Law.

For example here in México, we have a federal law of intellectual property and in various articles but in the 251 says more or less that a person can do a copy of the protected work for private using or studing using, but not for selling or create a profit of that work.

Maybe Ivan they find difficult to understand the point because as you know, our body of Latin law is different of the anglo law.

And to TGM:Orb : If and artist do not want to put samples or that do not want that PA put up samples of their music, if PA were in México, for example there are some articles in the Federal Law of Intellectual property that most of the people can use the artistic creation for public dominium, some creation, specially 30+ old can be use like public dominion.

Obiously respecting the creator of the artisitc creation

Edited by Alberto Muñoz - January 09 2009 at 18:43

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 18:48

Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Maybe Ivan they find difficult to understand the point because as you know, our body of Latin law is different of the anglo law.

Thanks Alberto, but in this case I searched the canadian Law, being prog Archives a site registered in Canada and it says:

____________________

Exceptions

Fair Dealing

Research or private study

29. Fair dealing for the purpose of research or private study does not infringe copyright.

R.S., 1985, c. C-42, s. 29; R.S., 1985, c. 10 (4th Supp.), s. 7; 1994, c. 47, s. 61; 1997, c. 24, s. 18.

Criticism or review

29.1 Fair dealing for the purpose of criticism or review does not infringe copyright if the following are mentioned:

(a) the source; and

(b) if given in the source, the name of the

(i) author, in the case of a work,

(ii) performer, in the case of a performer’s performance,

(iii) maker, in the case of a sound recording, or

(iv) broadcaster, in the case of a communication signal.

1997, c. 24, s. 18.

News reporting

29.2 Fair dealing for the purpose of news reporting does not infringe copyright if the following are mentioned:

(a) the source; and

(b) if given in the source, the name of the

(i) author, in the case of a work,

(ii) performer, in the case of a performer’s performance,

(iii) maker, in the case of a sound recording, or

(iv) broadcaster, in the case of a communication signal.

1997, c. 24, s. 18.

______________________

It's the law that Prog Archives has to respect.

Iván

Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 18:51

Ivan with that is perfectly clear tha PA respect the law

And Fripp is and very Wh**m guy.

That attitude from him is disapointing.

Fortunately i only admire and like his music.

TGM: Orb

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 19:41

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's a fan site of progressive rock in general, not one devoted to a particular artist. It is also a review and information site. The overwhelming majority of members would probably describe themselves as fans of prog rock in general. I would suggest that the site wants to come across as enthusiastic about progressive rock music and as respectful of the artists.

And it's not that i done my homework, I'm an attorney that has worked in copyright issues for almost two decades by now.

I know. That was what I was getting at.

TGM: Orb wrote:

Anyway, the important part is the ethos of it, not the law. If an artist doesn't want us to put up samples of their music, I think we should respect that.

There's a difference here. A newspaper informing about a concert isn't the same as a newspaper showing its readers footage of a concert (to which they were not entitled) to accompany that review. Equally, the news programs probably have some sort of deal which entitles them to show said images (alternatively, it's a case of Fair Use or simply a use that those who do have the rights to the images do not object to).

Do we have to accept it?

Would you say "Do we want to be anewspaper who makes demands of the artiosts, politicians, sportsmen and inform about them when they don't want?

Hosting a sample is not the same as informing through original content (which is the newspaper example you've given). The reviews are informing, the bios are informing, giving a sample is making use of an artist's copyrighted material. I don't know if fair use laws cover it, but regardless, I wouldn't want the site to be hosting material against the express wishes of its creator/owner, even if it were legally in the right. It simply seems disrespectful.

If you check, the artists use the Copyright act to protect their right, but exactly that same copyright Act grants a limit to their right named fair deal.

It seems like at least a grey or disputed area whether the samples here are something absolutely definitely covered by this Exceptions Article. I would suggest that the artist here simply doesn't believe that Exceptions Article 29.1 definitely applies to this case, rather than that Exceptions Article 29.1 is unacceptable.

My point is the respect of Constitutional and moral rights, that's all.

Iván

I still feel it's a bit silly to compromise PA because of an artist's decision over a legally grey area (if you have to establish whether the album rather than the song is the complete product, I don't think it's absolutely watertight). Your slippery slope argument is, in my opinion, inaccurate (one concession does not necessarily lead to ten concessions in largely different circumstances).

Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 19:51

[/QUOTE]

I still feel it's a bit silly to compromise PA because of an artist's decision over a legally grey area (if you have to establish whether the album rather than the song is the complete product, I don't think it's absolutely watertight). Your slippery slope argument is, in my opinion, inaccurate (one concession does not necessarily lead to ten concessions in largely different circumstances).
[/QUOTE]

That argument is not slope and shows only your lack of knowledge about the law with all due respect.

Sorry to be so rude but that's the truth.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 09 2009 at 20:11

Alberto Muñoz wrote:

TGM Orb wrote:

I still feel it's a bit silly to compromise PA because of an artist's decision over a legally grey area (if you have to establish whether the album rather than the song is the complete product, I don't think it's absolutely watertight). Your slippery slope argument is, in my opinion, inaccurate (one concession does not necessarily lead to ten concessions in largely different circumstances).

That argument is not slope and shows only your lack of knowledge about the law with all due respect.

Sorry to be so rude but that's the truth.

Thanks Alberto. the point if the song is a partial or a total product is IRRELEVANT.

The article clear states that if a copyrighted product (DOES NOT LIMIT THE LENGTH OR ANYTHING) is used for purpose of criticism review or information....IT'S CONSIDERED FAIR DEAL.

There are no grey areas, I wouldn't discuss with ou about your expertize area, don't discuss of laws with Alberto or me.

TGM Orb wrote:

It's a fan site of progressive rock in general, not one devoted to a particular artist. It is also a review and information site. The overwhelming majority of members would probably describe themselves as fans of prog rock in general. I would suggest that the site wants to come across as enthusiastic about progressive rock music and as respectful of the artists.

That's absurd, the site is not a Fan Club or similar, because, it's a specialized in Progresive Rock Information, Critcs and review site, that's undeniable,

The site doesn't OFFICIALLY say "Hey, X band is the best, you must buy the album", the site says...·Here is a list of all Prog bands (At least we try to include all), you can like it or not, give a positive or negative review, we will add it anyway, buy the albums or not, we only inform they exist."

As a fact, there are bios in which the band is described as average or even bad, in a fan site this doesn't happen.

If the site wants to accept King Crimson's request to avoid problems or discussions, it's a call of the site but not an obligation according to te law.

BTW: Newspapers and News TV programs are not limited to inform, not even in USA because the First Ammendment is pristine clear when it says that not even the Congress can limit the freedom of Press.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 09 2009 at 20:28

Vibrationbaby View Drop Down

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Posted: January 13 2009 at 15:02

Raff wrote:

Some people deal with copyright issues in very odd ways. If you think Fripp is bad, I'll tell you what happened to me and another bunch of people who wrote essays on Tolkien to be published in a book which came out in the fall of last year. In order to use VERY SHORT quotations from Tolkien's work in our essays, we were forced to pay £ 35 per head to HarperCollins (Tolkien's publisher in the UK), because they don't recognise 'fair use', and the publisher of our book wanted to have permission for all quotations used. As in the case of Fripp's lawyers, this means being unable to distinguish between reliable sources (in our case, an academic publisher) and dodgy ones Unhappy

I`m quoting Raff because what she has just said makes sense. i remember when I was in university it was stressed that plagirism could get our ass kicked out. Even if it was by fluke. So I thought to myself I`ll just be really bizarre and then I`ll be safe. It bloody well worked. One of the TA s even called me into her office to compliment me on something I wrote. I think she gave it a B because I made all kinds of typos. It was an expository essay on how full of crap the Berlin Wall was. She wanted to keep it and I gave it to her. I`m waiting for it to show up on the internet so I can sue her. LOL

. You wouldn`t believe how much of the stuff I`ve written for PA has been ripped off by other sites. Reviews, band bios etc. I`ve come to the point where I just take it with a grain of salt.

Anyway, getting back to Mr. Fripp. EG Records ripped the guy off for years and I can feel for him. I read down the whole thread including the excerpts from Fripp`s diary that Tony R provided. Now, am I going to write this bloody letter? The general sentiment is that we want KC on the site and I honestly feel that if we go about it in a diplomatic way I think we can get results from Bob & Co. And Ivan I`ve respectfully taken all your arguments into account. I`m going out of my way here. I`ll post the letter on this thread for all to read and we the people can add or take away from it until we`re all satisfied with the content.

The letter will be up at this time tomorrow for all to see. I promise. Then let the jury decide.

Edited by Vibrationbaby - January 13 2009 at 15:04

darkshade

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Posted: February 15 2009 at 14:06

how about Fripp stops dicking aroung and RELEASE A NEW KING CRIMSON ALBUM ALREADY!!!

Edited by darkshade - February 15 2009 at 14:06

My Last.fm

Epignosis

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Posted: February 15 2009 at 15:02

darkshade wrote:

how about Fripp stops dicking aroung and RELEASE A NEW KING CRIMSON ALBUM ALREADY!!!

Keep that tone, and Fripp might just disband King Crimson to spite you.

That hasn't ever happened before, has it?

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

OzzProg

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Posted: February 15 2009 at 18:07

NaturalScience wrote:

Maybe KC should request all stores and online retailers pull their CDs as well.

He already has, from what I understand. About a year ago I went into some moderately mainstream music store, and noted the empty King Crimson slot (not an uncommon sight, seeing as most music stores will stock 1 CD from them). I asked the guy working at the store when they were expecting a new shipment of KC CDs, and it turned out that he was an avid Fripp and KC fan, and he replied to something along the lines of this;

"Robert Fripp has decided to sell his music solely via the internet, no KC CDs will ever be shipped again."

I thought this was BS, so did the same thing at a HMV, and I got the same answer, except not from a Fripp fan (he read it off his computer, that CD orders were discontinued from KC)

i thought that was pretty terrible...

Soundcloud

Vibrationbaby View Drop Down

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Posted: February 16 2009 at 09:38

Fripp will always be Fripp and we must accept that. And this is a short rebuttle to Ivan. Sorry Ivan this is a fan site. We`re all fans so therefore this is a fan site.

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: February 16 2009 at 09:59

OzzProg wrote:

NaturalScience wrote:

Maybe KC should request all stores and online retailers pull their CDs as well.

You know, these days, the internet is a much better way to distribute things. Copies just going to those are interested rather than being mass produced and shipped all over the place. Still I keep going to my local independent seller to browse and buy and occasionally to the big guy in the neighborhood for the instant gratification. Fripp's internet store, too...

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

OzzProg

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Posted: February 16 2009 at 17:06

Slartibartfast wrote:

You know, these days, the internet is a much better way to distribute things. Copies just going to those are interested rather than being mass produced and shipped all over the place. Still I keep going to my local independent seller to browse and buy and occasionally to the big guy in the neighborhood for the instant gratification. Fripp's internet store, too...

I like the idea of buying off the internet too, easier, faster, and better for the environment. However, at the end of the day, when you purchase music off the internet, it doesn't really feel like you have bought anything, nothing real at least. I like to have a hard copy, its just nice to have, linear notes, pictures, easily playable (you can play MP3s in cars and radios, but with much more grief and poorer sound usually).

I recently bought the Remastered version of Yessongs of iTunes, and it just doesn't feel right, not to mention only 128 bit rate is available, which is noticeably poorer sound quality, defeating the purposed of the Remaster.

Soundcloud

marklina

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Posted: March 28 2009 at 01:25

Blacktabøl wrote:

I wondered why the MP3 was suddenly gone! Wow, that's kinda disappointing. I was going to write down the songs in the MP3 list for a friend of mine who recently listened to one of the songs in the MP3 list.

valravennz View Drop Down

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Posted: March 28 2009 at 19:05

Anyone who frequents iTunes notice that the King Crimson catalogue has been withdrawn?? (Well at least from the NZ Store). Not a fan friendly move from RF and most disappointing

"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp