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Einsetumadur 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 24 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 265 |
 Topic: The ByrdsPosted: January 24 2009 at 05:55 |
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I know, this has been already discussed, but in my opinion The Byrds should be included here, too, as a ProtoProg band because they were one of the first bands to fusion different musical genres and because they created the psychedelic rock - probably earlier than other bands:
In 1964, the Byrds already showed a sense for quite unusual chord progressions (Don't Be Long, You Showed Me) and they also were the first to use the wailing sound of the Rickenbacker electric 12-string-guitar, a fact which is also related to the early use of mantra-like vocals (If You're Gone) and very influential harmony vocals on songs like "Turn Turn Turn". The bass playing of Hillman should also by kind of revolutional for pop music. Since late 1965 the music became more "progressive"; free jazz guitar solos in "Eight Miles High" in late 1965 or on "I See You" in 1966, hymnal folk rock on 5D and real psychedelia on "Younger than Yesterday" and "Notorious Byrd Brothers", for example on the absolutely uncommercial guitar-multitrack-experiment "Mind Gardens" 1966. Sound effects were also used since 1966 (airplanes on 2-4-2 Foxtrot, oscillators on CTA-102, moog synthesizers on Space Odyssey and the outtake Moog Raga etc.). Interesting is also "Old John Robertson" with the mix of classic and country music. What do you think? Best wishes, Einsetumadur |
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All in all each man in all men
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micky
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: January 24 2009 at 07:35 |
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it has been suggested and discussed I'm sure
 ... but you do deserve some clappies for a nice explanation... and not trying to justify it by who is already here.no opinion on this... other than for what it is worth... the Byrds were known as America's answer to the Beatles... and it wasn't for good looks and causing the chicks to scream. Lots of merit... |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: January 24 2009 at 07:43 |
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I am not an expert on The Byrds, but I'd like to compliment Einsetumadur for putting down a suggestion the way every suggestion should be made - that is, by resorting to REAL musical arguments, and not to the old, tired 'if X are here, time to add Y'. Kudos to you, sir
 !
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: October 21 2005 Location: Terra Brasilis Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
Posted: January 24 2009 at 07:53 |
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Byrds are my favorite classical rock band.
IMO they are better than The Beatles and the comparison between both acts is much more a marketing feature than a real fact. Byrds' career was trailed on their own rails (although they share some similarities with other bands of the same time, British or North American).
I think their case for inclusion here isn't strong. When Beatles changed for art-rock, avant-gard, proto-symphonic or whatelse, Byrds went to country-rock with many nice and agreeable songs but far from progressive or even proto-progressive.
Anyway, I discovered Yes when I noticed a new band covering 'I see you'...  Edited by Atkingani - January 24 2009 at 07:54 |
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Guigo
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8238 |
Posted: January 24 2009 at 08:44 |
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I liked the band very much and their forays into prog are remarkable. But, like Buffalo Springfield (who at times ventured into progland as well), their C&W leanings were stronger and tend to overshadow their jazzier contributions like "Eight Miles High" and "I See You." I think all true proggers would enjoy their music to some extent but I'm not sure they had all that much influence on the progressive rock movement in the late 60s.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 11 2007 Location: Hibernation Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:59 |
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I see them as a band that got the ball rolling on the mainstream acceptance of jazz/psych/folk into pop music...a combo that turned into progressive rock from what I've read. IMO they ran circles around the British Invasion bands. Also, they strike me as more complex and innovative than The Springfield or The Airplane (based on the Crosby-era, they went to country-rock after that). I always thought The Byrds could be here but never had the balls to suggest it; to me they are the epitome of "proto-prog." But I doubt they will get much support, which is fine with me. Plenty of other things to take care of...
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
Posted: January 25 2009 at 09:51 |
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Perhaps not 'too prog' not even from our own 'proto-prog' standard (the way I'm perceiving it) but in my opinion they have enough musical credibility for proto.
In my opinion, proto prog category should be much more inclusive. It's a consequential history of our beloved genre, and that era is hiding a whole lot of innovations and explorations. and I can't get over The Bonzo Dog Band rejection... |
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Einsetumadur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 24 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 265 |
Posted: January 28 2009 at 04:19 |
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Thanks for the kudos...
Yes, of course - the band was very popular, especially until 1965, but as lots of folk prog/proto prog artists tell in Interviews (for example Dave Cousins of the Strawbs, the Golden Earring and for sure Fairport Convention and even the Beatles), the Byrds were a big influence for very much bands. I agree that the "Tambourine Man" and "Turn Turn Turn" aren't too experimental, but from 1965 on they always did a lot of experiments - they were one of the first bands to use an oscillator (CTA 102, 1966) and a Moog (Space Odyssey, 1967), reversed guitars (Thoughts and Words, Mind Gardens, 1966), and many many more odditys ... I know, they are a bit between the chairs (art pop or simple pop), but they were the first Folk Rock/Prog band, and a very independent one - I don't really see the Beatles sound in their music, but if it is there it was definitely gone when Gene Clark left in 1965.  They somehow "belong" into this category in my book, as a part of a scene that included many bands without whom the progressive rock wouldn't exist.  |
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All in all each man in all men
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earlyprog
Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2133 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 15:44 |
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George Harrison used the 12 string on "A Hard Day's Night" and in the movie of the same name in early '64. According to history, McGuin saw the movie and immediately went out and bought a 12 string. But I think McGuin (with the help of studio technology?) was more succesful in bringing its sound to the forefront.
I agree that they did contribute with a few songs in '65-'66 in what could be argued to be proto-prog. Edited by earlyprog - February 10 2009 at 15:51 |
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 09:35 |
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mmm i think that protoprog suits fine.
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Seyo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 08 2004 Location: Bosnia Status: Offline Points: 1320 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 09:44 |
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Definitely, the Byrds had many proto-prog elements, perhaps only surpassed by the Beatles.
Fusion of folk, jazz, raga, country and rock;
Pioneers of psychedelia and acid-rock, with unusual guitar sounds;
Studio experimentation with different sound effects;
Trilogy of albums (5th Dimension, Younger than Yesterday, Notorious Bird Brothers) contains all of these and are timeless classics of innovative music;
and
One of my top 10 bands ever! ;) Edited by Seyo - February 11 2009 at 09:47 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 14:08 |
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The big problem we have in Prog Archives is that there's not a unique definition of Prog, so if we search in each and every 60's bands, we will find some `pseudo Prog element, but the reality is that in most of the 60's bands we will find some Psyche elements that not necessarily mean Prog Psychedelia (Eetu made a very complete definition of which Psyche bands should be added). The Byrds were representative of an era previous to Psychedelia, so in real terms they are some sort of Proto Psyche more than Proto Prog, their debut album has some tracks that come remotely near to proto Prog, but most of them are by Bob Dylan. They successfully combined early Psychedelia with Country mostly, but that's not even pure Psyche, so wee need to draw a line. They were representative, yes, influential yes, but as influential as Elvis and the Rock pioneers or as Bob Dylan. So IMO we must add to proto Prog the bands that already have clear Prog elements even if in embryonic state, and The Byrds are not one of them. Somebody said we must be more open in Proto Prog, I believe we already have gone too far, if we keep adding any band that has some Psyche influence, we will end adding Chuck Berry because he influenced everybody. But what can we do? We must use other methods even if people don't like them, for example 1.- Check all the other Prog sites and verify who has them listed, in the case of The Byrds, I believe non of the representative Prog sites has them, at least not
2.- Then we must use logic, if Prog Archives has 5 years and the band has been active for 30 more years, but still not added, then there must be a reason. 3.- If they have been suggested and rejected already, there must be a reason also. 4.- Compare them with coetaneous bands, and in this case, by thei third album (When Protto Prog appeared), they were behind every proto Prog band already added. 5.- Evolution: The band as Guigo said, keep turning more and more Country Rock as the time passed, when most bands had evolved into pure prog, they had no significative elements Everything points towards no IMHO. So if we want to keep the identity of a Prog site, we must only add those bands that not only influenced Prog (everybody influenced Prog), but did it directly and have clear Prog elements, which is not the case. My two cents. Iván PS: Even when I disagree with the addition, based in the composition, I believe this is one of the suggestions presented in the most coherent way.Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 11 2009 at 14:22 |
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earlyprog
Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2133 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 16:05 |
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Great comments Ivan.
I can't really say I disagree with your conclusions. But I disagree that "by their third album they were behind every other proto-prog band". For instance, in a US context they seem ahead of Jefferson Airplane. In fact I regard Jefferson A as an extension to "Fifth Dimension" by the Byrds. Combine this with "Surrealistic Pillow" by Jeff A and and you've got a consistent double album. Just try listening to them back-to-back.
Therefore, "If Jeff A is proto-prog then "Fifth Dimension" is the first proto-prog album"! Personllay, I don't think this argument holds because I have always had difficulties in regarding Jeff A as proto prog.
Yes, the Byrds decided to follow the route of Bob Dylan from their very first album, but where would prog folk be without the Byrds?
They still remain one of the most progressive acts of '65-'66 and have some very memorable prog (proto psyche) songs from this period: "I knew I'd want you", "Here without you", "I see you", "Eight miles high" (most of "5th Dimension" actually). Edited by earlyprog - February 11 2009 at 16:06 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 16:34 |
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Agree with you, i have a lot of troubles understanding Jefferson Airplane as Proto Prog, I've seen them always as a very interesting Psych act, but my policy has always been not to question bands that are already added.
Doesn't matter if I don't agree, the decision has already been taken, so there's nothing i can do about them.
My pointy of comparison are bands as Arthur Brown, Procol Harum or early Moody Blues, which I insist were far more advanced than The byrds in their debut albums.
Thanks for your words earlyprog.
Iván
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 18:40 |
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As I don't know enough about the Byrds outside of their singles & their initial best of, I wonder if we could ask Einsetumadur and the other supporters of this additionto suggest a few albums that might bolster the case.
With some recent additions being based on a few songs on one album out of, say, two or three, I believe that the Byrds chances would be improved if the focus could be put on a few of the releases that present the strongest support for their inclusion. So far, there's been a number of songs mentioned, but did they represent a major part of the albums ? From my readings, it seems that only Fifth Dimension, Younger than Yesterday & Notorious Byrd Brothers were the three albums where the group could lay claim to being proto prog or psyche. So are there enough songs therein to say that they qualify ? Or are we letting our admiration for their work overshadow the prog "quotient" ? Remember , this is the sort of discussion we're having about the Scorpions. Do we dismiss a group on their latter day output, or consider them on a specific period, or more to the point, for a certain number of songs ? |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 19:18 |
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I swear I've seen this topic been re done at least 5 times in the time I've been at PA
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 36012 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:43 |
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Of course the topic starter mentioned that he knew this had been discussed, but there are surprisingly few results for The Byrds, I think, and only three topics (all locked) in this forum before this one -- the latest two being from January 2007 (surprisingly, both done within twelve days of each-other), and of course those two pre-date your arrival (at least under that account), by almost a year. The earliest one is rather different in scope, and I do think "Eight Miles High" progressive. Here they are for reference purposes (some interesting discussion). By contrast, to use the first examples that spring to mind, Metallica and David Bowie had 11 topics each devoted to them in Suggest New Bands, Hendrix had 9, Led Zep had 7, Miles Davis had 6, The Doors had 6, Cream had 4, Budgie had 4, Santana had 3, and John Coltrane had 1.
As for the suggestion, it certainly has merit, but I don't know how much. Edited by Logan - February 12 2009 at 16:53 |
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earlyprog
Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2133 |
Posted: February 12 2009 at 08:34 |
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When considering possible proto-prog bands for inclusion one shouldn't expect prog allover their output, but rather a song (or perhaps limited to sections of songs) here and there that has the prog flavour.
Therefore, in the case or proto-prog bands it's ok to judge from a selection of songs (or even sections of songs) not necessarily from the same album.
This ought to be the case with the Byrds, although I think most of the album "5th Dimension" will appeal to most (early) prog lovers.
Another important aspect is did they influence the development of prog? I seems to me the Byrds made an impact on Jefferson Airplane and other 60's US west coast proto prog acts, more in style than in their use of specific instruments though it cannot be ruled out this also affected other (proto) prog bands. And how much did the Byrds influence the development of prog folk? it would probably have developed without them (but perhaps at a later stage).
And if you look at the recording dates of Dylan's Bringing it all back home and the Byrds Mr. tambourine man, which contains many Dylan covers, it seems theoretically possible that Dylan got inspired by the Byrds to go electric.
Judging individual songs has the drawback that this leaves a door open to acts such as the Beach Boys (Good Vibrations and Smiley Smile, which was basically proto prog for the entire album). And what about Stones' Their satanic majesties request? In the latter case prog would probably have happened without it. But the Byrds have a stronger case I think.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 12 2009 at 12:51 |
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I believe Their Satanic Majesties request is 100 times more Prog Related than all The Byrds career, I don't care if it's influential or not, IT'S PROG, and that should be enough.
But I judge the cost benefit of ading The Rolling Stones in it's integrity, and sadly I have to say no to a fantastic album like Their Satanic Majesties request, which IMHO is better than Sargeant Pepper's.
Iván
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: February 12 2009 at 20:24 |
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Might as well add a few thoughts.
I always have enjoyed the Byrds. And yes the guitar solo on Eight Miles High is pure proto prog. And yes, the embryonic Yes did cover I See You (great song). And there could be many arguments why they might belong here.
But let's look at influence. In terms of their original songs (I mean the ones they wrote, not the Dylan covers), what was the greatest impact on more modern bands? I'm thinking the early Byrds blood-line runs to Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers rather than prog. Now I like a lot of Tom Petty stuff but I'm thinking I'd get pretty much 100% agreement he's not progressive rock, in spite of some mighty impressive synth-pop during the early- to mid-80's.
Now for the later Byrds, they also made a couple of great albums, my favorite being Sweetheart of the Rodeo. But again, if we look at the blood-line from that we eventually end up at The Eagles, who I am also thinking I'd get 100% agreement they are not progressive rock.
So what appears to be a proto band actually is. It's just that their influence never really was felt in the progressive rock world.
This said from a guy who saw them when I was maybe 14 years old and left the concert in awe at how good they were.
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The Byrds
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micky wrote:
