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Daniel1974nl 
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Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
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 Posted: February 10 2009 at 09:06 |
As I think Genesis THE example as what Progressive Rock should be......I have very much problems with answering this question. Its also a question that....one can spend tryping to answer the rest of his life and certainly takes alot more research that we can ever provide.
First Genesis themself was greatly influenced by King Crimson,The Nice, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and The Who, or this is atleast what the different members themself have stated in several interviews, books and other way you can make this visible (The black cover of FGTR was a reference to The Beatles White Album, and the somg The Knife was once called The Nice for example). So for me Genesis was one band in a unique row of great progressive Rock bands.
Second not so many bands really have copied the complete Genesis sound...like the now famous double drum sound for example...so in my earls only a few bands really should be marked as sounding as Genesis....you all refer to Marillion, but I think much more of a band as IQ, that not only maintained very much the powerfull Genesis sound (Powerfull drumming supported by highly keyboard swollen epic, while alot of bands lend much more on guitar than Genesis ever did), but also the theatrical aspects (anyone who ever saw The Enemy Smacks live Probably know what I mean). All other bands Pendragon's reference to Firth Of Fifth with Breaking The Spell, their homage to Entangled with King Of The Castle, all true but the way Nick Barrett plays is much much more like David Gilmour) Another reference always made is the fact that Rione Stolt is so much influenced by Genesis that even one of his kids is called Gabriel.....that may be true..but his music is much more that a Genesis influence...and often gives away much much Yes / Steve Howe influences, certainly his album The Flower King that right from the beginning gives such a characteristic Yes sound that one cannot draw any other conclusion.
So more bands only borrowed something they like from Genesis....and I think that way we can only say that indeed they did inspire legions of bands.....They did indeed popularise the Mellotron more...They introduced Theatrics in the music and so we can go on......
No matter how much I like Genesis as a band....they were not the most infliential, or atleast we must be extremely cautious with a statement like that.....It takes proof impossible to give and on top of that other bands are much more creditable to get this title....King Crimson to begin with.
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el dingo
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Joined: October 08 2008
Location: Norwich UK
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Points: 7053
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 08:43 |
 rogerthat wrote:
progrupicola wrote:
Hammill influenced by Gabriel?
I think you don't pay any attencion on listening to Mr.Hammill,his voice is like nothing before and sadly after (it's compared to Hendrix on guitar).I like Gabriel for many years and i like his sweet voice but he has nothing to do with the xtreme nature of a Hammill voice. |
Er, who said anything about Hammill influenced by Gabriel because I am as confused as you by such a statement. 
[QUOTE=progrupicola]
Can you think in Gabriel (His way to sing) been respected by Punks? |
If Peter Hammill was influenced by Gabriel then I am truly about to become what I've always wanted to be... a rabid aardvaark. Mind you, I'm not yer average punk fan. Long live VdGG &, indeed, early Genesis. And the Clash. 
Edited by el dingo - February 10 2009 at 08:45
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It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 07:59 |
progrupicola wrote:
Hammill influenced by Gabriel?
I think you don't pay any attencion on listening to Mr.Hammill,his voice is like nothing before and sadly after (it's compared to Hendrix on guitar).I like Gabriel for many years and i like his sweet voice but he has nothing to do with the xtreme nature of a Hammill voice. |
Er, who said anything about Hammill influenced by Gabriel because I am as confused as you by such a statement.
progrupicola wrote:
Can you think in Gabriel (His way to sing) been respected by Punks? |
And why is that important to this or any other discussion? Mind, I love Hammill, he's perhaps the most charismatic prog frontman of all time, but why am I supposed to care about how much punks appreciate him or not because the average punk fan does not look at prog the way I or many others on this forum do.
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progrupicola
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Joined: May 11 2007
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 07:51 |
Hammill influenced by Gabriel?
I think you don't pay any attencion on listening to Mr.Hammill,his voice is like nothing before and sadly after (it's compared to Hendrix on guitar).I like Gabriel for many years and i like his sweet voice but he has nothing to do with the xtreme nature of a Hammill voice.
It's compared to Hendrix on guitar.
Can you think in Gabriel (His way to sing) been respected by Punks?
No way, this is only one example of how edgy Hammill voice can be.
Hammill coul be and angel but a dark demon at the same time.
Do you feel Gabriel like a demon?
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Spenny
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Joined: February 09 2009
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 06:17 |
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The flaw in the argument is assuming that all these groups have a hierarchy and worked in isolation. They listened to each other, were inspired by each other and outside influences - including the technological changes that allowed them to do things that had not been done before. Bowie was the one as much as Gabriel who brought performance art to the rock stage. Then Led Zeppelin set the standard for heavy metal (not forgetting that even Abbey Road rocked out at times). Moody Blues was influential on me because of my bigger brother, and their mightiness at the time seems to have been forgotten. Focus showed that instrumental music could stand in its own right and there was room for jazz in rock.
None of the groups could have stood in isolation.
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rogerthat
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 23:27 |
A general entreaty here: can you guys stop bringing up Marillion every time there is a Genesis thread for God's sake? I mean, even when the topic of their influence on neo prog comes up, can we stop bringing up the Fish-Gabriel comparisons for sometime and maybe cite some other neo prog band to demonstrate Genesis' influence? I like both Fish's stint with Marillion and the five man and four man Genesis albums and it is painful to see people resort to calling one band a magpie (Marillion) and another overrated and boring(Genesis) just to score points off each other. Yes, yes, I have the option not to read it which for your information is what I would have exercised in this thread too had it not been for my own participation in it at a brief juncture when it was made more interesting by some insightful posts from micky. And likewise, you folks have the option to not reduce the level of discourse to such petulant, immature levels either. Internet is serious business, lolz? Then why bother if someone says Fish sounds like Gabriel or no, that he sounds like Hamill? In all fairness, this time, it wasn't so bad as my post might make it out to be, but I am afraid by now my patience has worn thin.  *End of rant* Feeling better now! 
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Location: Ukraine
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Points: 25210
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 23:10 |
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FWIW, I think Crimson is more influential.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Joined: December 24 2007
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 22:49 |
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Geezus, 5 pages.
No offense to anyone, but I can't believe anyone really cares enough to stretch this out to 5 pages.
Oh well, nevermind me.
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Pnoom!
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Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
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Points: 4981
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 21:27 |
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It seems sorta obvious to me that King Crimson was the most influential prog rock band, but the more I actually start thinking about it, the more I realize that the best argument I can give in favor of that is "they did it first."
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geoffbarra
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Joined: September 25 2007
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 21:18 |
Hi
Just joined ProgArchives (what an incredible site) - my first post , but would like to give my opinion on this discussion...
As a kid my first LP was a Beatles - then The Moody Blues, followed by King Crimson - these two albums set me off on the musical path of what came to be known as "Progressive Rock". So MB and KC were influential to me - as well as (let's not forget) The Nice...
One can argue many bands as being the MOST influential overall, however the band that cemented this growing genre at that time, I think, has to be Yes.
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Without Prog - where would wise men be...?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 20:51 |
SunJester wrote:
No. Pink Floyd were (and continue to be) the most influential prog band. They were unique. Heavy and soft at the same time. They had complex music that was decades ahead of most bands. And they stood by the whole "Concept" album thing from start to finish.
As far as i know, pink Floyd music was not among the most complex,to the point that many here say they were never Prog (Something with what I disagree), but that means nothing, they were outstanding
Genesis, on the other hand, were/are over-rated.
Overrated, what a word, this means that because you don't like them, all of us who believe is an outstanding band are wrong.
They became pop clones very quickly,
Veru quickly?
- Trespass
- Nursery Cryme
- Foxtrot
- Live
- Selling England by the Pound
- A Trick of the Tail
- Wind & Wuthering
- Seconds out
Some include ATTW3 and Duke in Prog, i don't.
But are 8 or 10 abums quickly? How many bands don't have such a long career
and aside from "Selling England by the Pound," they were very forgettable.
So, are:
- White Mountain
- The Knife
- Musical Box
- The Return of the Giant Hogweed
- Fountain of salmacis
- Watcher of the Skies
- Can Utility and the Coastliners
- Supper's Ready
- The Whole Lamb
Fogettable?
Isn't this more your opinion than a fact?
Is it a coincidence that Hackett and Gabriel produced their best creative work after they left Genesis?
Of course it will be logical, because Hackett was not a main songwritter in genesis and peter was miostly a lyricist.
As for Fish era Marillion being influenced by Gabriel era Genesis: How? I have listened to the Gabriel era Genesis and compared it to Fish/Marillion. There is very little resemblance. Yes, Fish used to like to dress up live and revel in the Jester image, somewhat mirroring Gabriel's earlier colorful renditions of his own Genesis music. But that is about it. Music wise, the Fish era Marillion music is far superior. But everyone to their own.
There are reminiscences of early Genesis in Marillion, just listen Assasin and Battle for the Epping Forest for example, even Fish in "Marillion The Fish Years" DVD accepts their main influence is genesis.
Now superior......That's another opinion.
Many too many have stood where I stand.
I assure you many more stand in the opposite side.
Iván
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 20:38 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I'm certain it comes from repeating myself.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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SunJester
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 20:37 |
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No. Pink Floyd were (and continue to be) the most influential prog band. They were unique. Heavy and soft at the same time. They had complex music that was decades ahead of most bands. And they stood by the whole "Concept" album thing from start to finish. Genesis, on the other hand, were/are over-rated. They became pop clones very quickly, and aside from "Selling England by the Pound," they were very forgettable. Is it a coincidence that Hackett and Gabriel produced their best creative work after they left Genesis? As for Fish era Marillion being influenced by Gabriel era Genesis: How? I have listened to the Gabriel era Genesis and compared it to Fish/Marillion. There is very little resemblance. Yes, Fish used to like to dress up live and revel in the Jester image, somewhat mirroring Gabriel's earlier colorful renditions of his own Genesis music. But that is about it. Music wise, the Fish era Marillion music is far superior. But everyone to their own.
Many too many have stood where I stand.
AB
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 20:37 |
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Well, the new folks like to start new discussions to go over what has been previously discussed and I wouldn't want to deny them their fun. I do get that deja vu feeling from time to time and I'm certain it comes from repeating myself.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 20:03 |
himtroy wrote:
fil karada wrote:
If we begin to travel to the past we'll see that all music came from the cavemen of course. So I just need to know one thing to answer that question: when does jazz/pop/classical/younameit music becomes prog? If someone tells me that I'll answer. |
That's exactly what I'm always saying man. It's like, wow, X band influenced you, but the movement from psych to prog has taken place here, so YOU are the most original ever at prog. It's just lables, black and white being applied to something that has much variance in colour. Jazz influenced King Crimson, but the way these people act, that doesn't count because it's not the same genre.
WHO CARES WHO INFLUENCED PROG! If you want to argue about where the mystic comes into music, try to point your finger at the original psychedelia in the 60's. Progressive rock is just the continuation of psychedelic music, and it directly crosses over. In the Court of the Crimson King is an example, it's very much a psychedelic rock album as well as a progressive rock album, the Moody Blues, I don't even know which they lean more towards, it's nothing brand new people. |
I understand how fristratying this can be for somebody with 67 posts, but after 4 or 5 years here, we need new issues tio discuss, and believe me, there are not many left.
I have seen at least 20 fantasy band threads, like 40 about desert islands with all the variations, contests Yes against Genesis, ELP and even Henry Cow or Drean Theater vs Barclay James harvest  , hundreeds about which is your favorite sub-genre, your most hated album, and of course several underrated and overrated polls.....All of them are tiresome IMHO.
But researching about influences present in some bands, is a quite interesting issue, saying Prog is the continuation of Psychedelia is red¡ucing everything to a minimum, Prog is so rich and vast that the influences are too many.
There are lots of Prog bands that have no relation with Psyche,or at the most minimum influence, starting with bands that come from Jazz and metal.
I do care to discuss about the most influential bands, it's an interesting issue, at least for me and for 5 pages of members who have replied.
Iván
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
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Points: 1601
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:41 |
fil karada wrote:
If we begin to travel to the past we'll see that all music came from the cavemen of course. So I just need to know one thing to answer that question: when does jazz/pop/classical/younameit music becomes prog? If someone tells me that I'll answer. |
That's exactly what I'm always saying man. It's like, wow, X band influenced you, but the movement from psych to prog has taken place here, so YOU are the most original ever at prog. It's just lables, black and white being applied to something that has much variance in colour. Jazz influenced King Crimson, but the way these people act, that doesn't count because it's not the same genre.
WHO CARES WHO INFLUENCED PROG! If you want to argue about where the mystic comes into music, try to point your finger at the original psychedelia in the 60's. Progressive rock is just the continuation of psychedelic music, and it directly crosses over. In the Court of the Crimson King is an example, it's very much a psychedelic rock album as well as a progressive rock album, the Moody Blues, I don't even know which they lean more towards, it's nothing brand new people.
Edited by himtroy - February 09 2009 at 19:45
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Prospero
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Location: Quebec
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:07 |
Chelsea wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
cacho wrote:
^ I know you're joking Mike, this is if the OP really considers Fish as a Gabriel clone. I listened to the entire Script tons of times, and I just can't find similarities. Fish? Hammill maybe... |
For goodness sake why are there so many semantic abuses of the English language. Nearly every time I read 'Influential' or 'influence' as a thread title, I also go "here we go ahead" , mainly because the words are employed incorrectly or imprecisely. Now here we go with 'clone' - I can think of 3 singers who have or still employ Peter Gabriel-like inflections, intonations (deliberate or otherwise), including the aforementioned Fish, Francis Dunnery, Shaun Guerin. However, play their tunes them side by side and the differences are most evident, and these guys are their own men. Compare that against the zillions doing Elvis P impersonations either professionally or as amateurs. |
You are all wrong and me being in my twenties having to tell you who it is kind of ironic.
What sparked that original creative spark that became prog rock?
Bill Buford: "The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted".
In their time, they were revolutionary. Look at something like "Happiness Is A Warm Gun", and listen to how many times it changes time signatures. That type of thing was unheard of in pop music in the 60s. Yeh they were not the greatest instrumentalists but people have had 40-45 years of technology to catch up to them. Many of their arrangements and melodies were revolutionary for their time. Sure, it can be your opinion that they weren't, but all that shows is that you really don't know what you're talking about
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I agree. I'd also mention Bob Dylan who, with "Like a Rolling Stone" for example, brought blues, rock and folk together, there again, breaking the barriers. Secondly, I think jazz greatly influenced prog rock to the point that these days we can't even tell whether some bands play jazz or prog rock. Lastly, heavy metal music also had its share of influence. In the end, prog gets its inspirations from so many different places (world music, electronic, etc), it would be a crime to say that Genesis has a dominion over all of them.
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Jozef
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 14:32 |
Chelsea wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
cacho wrote:
^ I know you're joking Mike, this is if the OP really considers Fish as a Gabriel clone. I listened to the entire Script tons of times, and I just can't find similarities. Fish? Hammill maybe... |
For goodness sake why are there so many semantic abuses of the English language. Nearly every time I read 'Influential' or 'influence' as a thread title, I also go "here we go ahead" , mainly because the words are employed incorrectly or imprecisely. Now here we go with 'clone' - I can think of 3 singers who have or still employ Peter Gabriel-like inflections, intonations (deliberate or otherwise), including the aforementioned Fish, Francis Dunnery, Shaun Guerin. However, play their tunes them side by side and the differences are most evident, and these guys are their own men. Compare that against the zillions doing Elvis P impersonations either professionally or as amateurs. |
You are all wrong and me being in my twenties having to tell you who it is kind of ironic.
What sparked that original creative spark that became prog rock?
Bill Buford: "The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted".
In their time, they were revolutionary. Look at something like "Happiness Is A Warm Gun", and listen to how many times it changes time signatures. That type of thing was unheard of in pop music in the 60s. Yeh they were not the greatest instrumentalists but people have had 40-45 years of technology to catch up to them. Many of their arrangements and melodies were revolutionary for their time. Sure, it can be your opinion that they weren't, but all that shows is that you really don't know what you're talking about
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Yeah guys, you all are fools for thinking otherwise. The expert is in the house now. 
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Joe Rockhead
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Joined: April 23 2006
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 14:18 |
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Why waste time comparing ? There are more Gabriel clones than Anderson . Maybe because its easier to mimic Gabriel. Anderson is an alto tenor who can't be copied. I heard the replacement and he's close but not Jon Anderson. Genesis was great in the 70s as was Yes. The difference is Yes keep going. Where is Genesis now ?? I also feel the 80s Yes was better than Genesis if you can stand listening to it. Close To The Edge is hands down the best of the Symphonic Progressive albums. I also like ELP, PFM, and many others , so let's just appreciate both for what they were.
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J Rockhead
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Chelsea
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 12:43 |
Dick Heath wrote:
cacho wrote:
^ I know you're joking Mike, this is if the OP really considers Fish as a Gabriel clone. I listened to the entire Script tons of times, and I just can't find similarities. Fish? Hammill maybe... |
For goodness sake why are there so many semantic abuses of the English language. Nearly every time I read 'Influential' or 'influence' as a thread title, I also go "here we go ahead" , mainly because the words are employed incorrectly or imprecisely. Now here we go with 'clone' - I can think of 3 singers who have or still employ Peter Gabriel-like inflections, intonations (deliberate or otherwise), including the aforementioned Fish, Francis Dunnery, Shaun Guerin. However, play their tunes them side by side and the differences are most evident, and these guys are their own men. Compare that against the zillions doing Elvis P impersonations either professionally or as amateurs. |
You are all wrong and me being in my twenties having to tell you who it is kind of ironic.
What sparked that original creative spark that became prog rock?
Bill Buford: "The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted".
In their time, they were revolutionary. Look at something like "Happiness Is A Warm Gun", and listen to how many times it changes time signatures. That type of thing was unheard of in pop music in the 60s. Yeh they were not the greatest instrumentalists but people have had 40-45 years of technology to catch up to them. Many of their arrangements and melodies were revolutionary for their time. Sure, it can be your opinion that they weren't, but all that shows is that you really don't know what you're talking about
Edited by Chelsea - February 09 2009 at 12:45
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Genesis the most influential prog band?
