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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
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 Posted: February 07 2009 at 00:56 |
No comments on Krautrock, not familiar with it. Heavy prog? Maybe just maybe for the first five albums. PR? Definitely! Mind, I am one of those who think if the PR category exists, it should only be for obscure artists that play music related to prog, not for well known bands that everybody in PA likes that incidentally have prog elements. But it's not upto me, so I won't object to that. Having thus accepted PR as a category, the legitimacy of Scorpions for it should be plain to all but those who are judging them by their late 80s-early 90s sellout crapfests. As a devoted Genesis fan, I want to state here that Scorpions's early to mid 80s material is still superior to what Genesis were doing contemporarily, so I don't think the fact that the band changed their style radically - or not so radically actually - is a valid argument. I mean, how would you like that Genesis was never on PA because of their 80s albums and therefore you never discovered the awesomeness of Hackett? Could have happened to me, because without PA, I would have never known about Genesis.
Now, coming to the 70s albums, which is the REAL bone of contention, Lonesome Crow and to a lesser extent Fly To The Rainbow have undeniable prog qualities at least as much as adjacent Sabbath, who are incidentally on PA. From thereon till Taken By Force, it is more hard rock/heavy metal with elements of prog creeping in only fleetingly. Whether this is a good enough case for them to be in PR or not is upto those who have to decide to decide; it's not upto me, but being familiar with the band I have stated their case. As for importance, their importance to the German metal and in turn the prog metal scene cannot be overstated; Uli Roth inspired a legion of European metal guitarists, including one Malmsteen.
There it is, I have said what I want to say, I am not going to question the judgment of other users because I have no right to. I am indifferent to whether Scorpions are added to PR or not, but I don't think it is such a ridiculous suggestion as some people have made it out to be, so I have stated my views. After that, we can agree to disagree.  |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: February 07 2009 at 01:15 |
 johnobvious wrote:
^So what is your position, Mike? If it was up to you, would they be on? I gave up caring who gets on as soon as Led Zeppelin made it and I realized I have no voice in the matter. But as I stated before, if I ever saw a review of Crazy World on here, I might go crazy myself.
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Having a review for St Anger isn't worse? 
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
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Points: 25210
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Posted: February 07 2009 at 01:15 |
rogerthat wrote:
johnobvious wrote:
^So what is your position, Mike? If it was up to you, would they be on? I gave up caring who gets on as soon as Led Zeppelin made it and I realized I have no voice in the matter. But as I stated before, if I ever saw a review of Crazy World on here, I might go crazy myself.
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Having a review for St Anger isn't worse? |
Good point 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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Posted: February 07 2009 at 01:19 |
That was real fast, by the way.
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listen
Forum Senior Member
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Location: Portland OR
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Posted: February 08 2009 at 00:13 |
By the way, only 2 of the 5 people who played on 'Lonesome Crow' ever played again with the scorpions. They also had a different producer (Conny Plank, of Guru Guru, Cluster, Os Mundi fame) and from all their subsequent albums, and were on a different label (Brain).
Edited by listen - February 08 2009 at 00:17
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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UMUR
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Posted: February 08 2009 at 01:12 |
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Man I´ve gotten curious. I think I´m gonna take a listen to that Lonesome Crow album.
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debrewguy
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Posted: February 08 2009 at 21:17 |
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Look, we're adding bands with short careers with only a few albums. And among their music, one album features "prog" or "prog-like" songs that total less than half of the number of tunes on said album..
Are they more worthy of inclusion under Heavy Prog or Prog related because of their obscurity ?
And if so, let's rename and re-define some categories to "prog-related genre", "due to obscurity sub-genre","with passing references to other beloved kinda prog bands sub-sub-genre".
Otherwise, the X is here, why not Y arguement is going to be used even more. Simple ratios of progginess applied to the unknown bands can be easily and deservedly applied to the well known ones. If 2/15 (2 out of every 15 songs) is enough to admit group X, then group Y is in, no matter that X put out 3 LPs, and Y put out 12.
And let's face it, the "pure/truly/out & out" one prog album standard would mean more than a few of these obscure inclusions would not pass muster either.
The Scorpions until Lovedrive had a decent claim to being "prog related". And the X vs Y logic serves up this truth very well. Forget about Crazy World. Just the same as some pass over some RIO bands that play cartoon music.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Seyo
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 09:35 |
listen wrote:
Seyo wrote:
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop.
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Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 09:56 |
Seyo wrote:
listen wrote:
Seyo wrote:
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop.
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Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge. |
But how exactly is what Scorpions did from the 80s onwards their most creative output either? Maybe someone who is not acquainted with their ENTIRE output would feel so, but any fan of their Roth era will say that the period upto Taken By Force was their most productive period artistically. And it has nothing to do with Roth's presence of abscence, he wasn't on the Lonesome Crow lineup to begin with, they just changed after TBF - whether for better or worse depends on one's preferences. Where I will agree though is that even with Roth, they certainly weren't pure prog by any means but the question then is which category are they to be voted for because for PR, they don't have to be prog, just related to it.
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listen
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 17:45 |
UMUR wrote:
Man I´ve gotten curious. I think I´m gonna take a listen to that Lonesome Crow album. |
let me know what you think!
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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listen
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Joined: December 05 2007
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 17:52 |
Seyo wrote:
listen wrote:
Seyo wrote:
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop.
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Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge. |
True. However, only 2 of the 5 people who played on 'Lonesome Crow' ever played again with the scorpions. They also had a different producer from all their subsequent albums (Conny Plank, member of Guru Guru, Cluster, Os Mundi and producer of many famous krautrock acts), and were on a different label (Brain, which also released over 50 notable prog albums). To this extent they perhaps should not be considered the same band as that which produced the Scorpion's future music. Regardless, I think their first album should be assessed on its own merits.
Edited by listen - February 09 2009 at 17:55
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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debrewguy
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:37 |
Seyo wrote:
listen wrote:
Seyo wrote:
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop.
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Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge. |
Ritchie Blackmore would have disagreed with you in a 1982 interview in Kerrang. Rainbow was headlining Reading ( I think), and he found that the Scorpions, among all the bands that played there , were THE one who were beyond the norm for hard rock. This was just before Blackout. So they would have been playing material from Lovedrive & Animal Magnetism (if you listen to the title song, you might reconsider the "straightforward heavy metal" tag), plus a smattering of Uli Roth era songs. Again, the arguement is made that the early career means nothing because they morphed into an intelligent AND radio friendly Hard Rock band. Heck , Wind of Change is no Dust in the Wind. But it is a hell of a great song, with intelligent and well written lyrics that stray far outside the typical "blooze" wordsmithing that overwhelms most metal & hard rock.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
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Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:43 |
listen wrote:
UMUR wrote:
Man I´ve gotten curious. I think I´m gonna take a listen to that Lonesome Crow album. |
let me know what you think! |
Me too ! I once read a review that said it sounded like Deep Purple kind of rock ???
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Seyo
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 03:52 |
debrewguy wrote:
Seyo wrote:
listen wrote:
Seyo wrote:
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop.
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Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge. |
Ritchie Blackmore would have disagreed with you in a 1982 interview in Kerrang. Rainbow was headlining Reading ( I think), and he found that the Scorpions, among all the bands that played there , were THE one who were beyond the norm for hard rock. This was just before Blackout. So they would have been playing material from Lovedrive & Animal Magnetism (if you listen to the title song, you might reconsider the "straightforward heavy metal" tag), plus a smattering of Uli Roth era songs.
Again, the arguement is made that the early career means nothing because they morphed into an intelligent AND radio friendly Hard Rock band. Heck , Wind of Change is no Dust in the Wind. But it is a hell of a great song, with intelligent and well written lyrics that stray far outside the typical "blooze" wordsmithing that overwhelms most metal & hard rock.
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OK, probably I was wrong to use the term "most creative output". I admit I know Scorpions mostly by their horrible mainstream hit songs of the 80s (including sleezy ballads like Winds of Change of course!) and was under impression that it was their creative and commercial peak.
Now I really want to hear their 70s stuff, in particular the debut. But, again I am very suspicious about them being considered prog band AS A WHOLE. It is again question of definition of "prog genres" and how to fit in.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 04:40 |
Seyo wrote:
Now I really want to hear their 70s stuff, in particular the debut. But, again I am very suspicious about them being considered prog band AS A WHOLE. It is again question of definition of "prog genres" and how to fit in. |
The only one of their albums that's prog all the way would be Lonesome Crow. Fly To The Rainbow is sort of like Salisbury, the big title track firmly slotting in prog but the rest more in the nature of hard rock/proto metal. I certainly agree that Scorpions qualifying for even heavy prog is a real struggle but for PR, imo, they have the credentials. All said, their 70s albums are worth listening to for what they are, regardless of how prog or not they are. Jimi Hendrix-inspired guitar jams, punishing metal numbers and gorgeous, tearing ballads, the 70s Scorps had everything one could ask for in an excellent hard rock/heavy metal band from the 70s. I know, I know, I am going to listen to Virgin Killer for the nth time today!
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Raff
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 06:00 |
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OK, since you've been mentioning Heavy Prog in this thread, I will tell you that I am willing to give the Scorpions' early output a fair evaluation (I know a couple of songs from those albums, no more) as long as my teammates agree with that.
However, having them included in HP would raise the questions of other bands with the same number of prog albums (or even more) who are stuck in Prog Related. I don't like any kind of unfair treatment, but unfortunately I see it more and more. Probably, as Debrewguy said in a previous post, it has to do with a band or artist's profile... The more high-profile they are, the less we are willing to include them in a fully prog subgenre, even if they would fully qualify.
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debrewguy
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 10:46 |
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I think that Prog Related is starting to show its' intended nature as the place for bands that are not quite prog, but of interest to prog fans (not all, but usually many).
Raff makes a good point about other bands that are in PR. And while there may be some that deserve a reconsideration, it would only add to the workload that currently backlogged.
My suggestion - let's leave it open to the community / admin / collabs to come forth if they feel they have compelling NEW arguements to present. I would dare guess that most aren't going to re-visit too many.
And of course, if we were wrong, it never hurts to allow our members to share their opinions (or almost never).
Again, with the emphasis on NEW info, no re-hashing of old debates.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:04 |
Raff wrote:
OK, since you've been mentioning Heavy Prog in this thread, I will tell you that I am willing to give the Scorpions' early output a fair evaluation (I know a couple of songs from those albums, no more) as long as my teammates agree with that.
However, having them included in HP would raise the questions of other bands with the same number of prog albums (or even more) who are stuck in Prog Related. I don't like any kind of unfair treatment, but unfortunately I see it more and more. Probably, as Debrewguy said in a previous post, it has to do with a band or artist's profile... The more high-profile they are, the less we are willing to include them in a fully prog subgenre, even if they would fully qualify.
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I don't think that high profile is bad per se ... it's more when the high profile parts of the discography are blatantly non prog but they had an obscure progressive phase, which is the case with the Scorpions. On a related note: When I first discovered this website, I didn't even know Genesis as a prog band. I only knew songs like I Can't Dance or Jesus He Knows Me from MTV. Seeing them listed as a prog band seemed odd to me, since I knew many others (Spock's Beard, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, ...) and the styles were so completely different. I guess that many people will have this kind of feeling regarding the Scorpions. You can download Lonesome Crow from eMusic.com (I linked to it in a previous post) ... the album is quite an interesting listen for anyone who's interested in Krautrock or Psychedelic/Space Rock and who's familiar with their later output. Sure, only two members of the original band made it into the 70s, but it were the two most important ones (Rudolf Schenker / Klaus Meine), who always have been the core of the band.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:13 |
debrewguy wrote:
I think that Prog Related is starting to show its' intended nature as the place for bands that are not quite prog, but of interest to prog fans (not all, but usually many).
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I've never seen that category any other way. If those bands were "quite prog", they would be listed in a proper prog genre (Crossover Prog for example). And when they're "of interest" to prog fans, there must be some *relation* to prog in their music. Of course there could also be a relation by band member, but IMO that's not really enough.
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rogerthat
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:27 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
On a related note: When I first discovered this website, I didn't even know Genesis as a prog band. I only knew songs like I Can't Dance or Jesus He Knows Me from MTV. Seeing them listed as a prog band seemed odd to me, since I knew many others (Spock's Beard, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, ...) and the styles were so completely different. I guess that many people will have this kind of feeling regarding the Scorpions.
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This is what I said earlier. One can't hold it against Scorpions that the WORLD knows them on account of Hurricane or Wind of Change because the world also knows Genesis only on account of those songs you mentioned, not Supper's Ready or Musical Box. I think being progheads, the folks here forget that most of the time. The only time I ever got to see a video of Yes on TV, it was of - you guessed it! - Owner of a Lonely Heart. Even with a more popular band like Pink Floyd, it's their decidedly non prog songs like Brick in the wall-2 and WYWH that are popular, not Echoes, not Dogs. I don't hear much raving for Shine On outside the prog fans/die hard Floydians circle either. I am not saying all this automatically goes to make Scorpions's case stronger, just that it is ridiculous to judge them by the output that made them world famous when the same test would fail with many big names of prog. As I have said before, I think Scorpions's case for any category other than PR is tenuous and it is not particularly of interest to me whether they get accepted in that category but as a devoted Scorpions fan, I would still like to do my bit to correct others where they are wrong and clarify misinformed opinions about the band.
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