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Alberto Muņoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 13:52 |
NaturalScience wrote:
But I'm not talking about Queen, who was on the very borderline of prog in pretty much the entirety of their catalog - I'm talking about acts that are deemed to have some (or even a little) prog-related content, and then pretty much nothing close to prog. Bands that are on the margins of a category that itself lives on the margins of progressive rock music just don't belong. |
Tell us what bands are those?
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Alberto Muņoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 13:49 |
I say that Scorpions are not HP, are not PR so?
They are a Hard Rock band with prog overtones not enough to be PR and only the 70's albums.
So i suggest to not suggest to add to PA
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Raff
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 12:22 |
Or, to use David's immortal words, "related to Prog-Related" ... The paradox is that currently we have bands in PR that have released a number of fully prog albums, and some who are there with much less valid credentials (such as having been members of prog bands). I don't think that is fair to the first category at all... Acts like Queen, Roxy Music, Deep Purple (who are in PP), even Black Sabbath are put on the same level as those who were thrown in PR after a cleanup session because they could not be deleted.
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Padraic
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Joined: February 16 2006
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:50 |
But I'm not talking about Queen, who was on the very borderline of prog in pretty much the entirety of their catalog - I'm talking about acts that are deemed to have some (or even a little) prog-related content, and then pretty much nothing close to prog. Bands that are on the margins of a category that itself lives on the margins of progressive rock music just don't belong.
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UMUR
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Joined: October 19 2007
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:41 |
I think thatīs a way too black and white rethoric ( Iīm not sure thatīs the right word but I guess you get the meaning), but your entitled to your opinion. Some of these artists are borderline cases but personally I think that having bands like Roxy Music, Kate Bush, Queen, Black Sabbath and other related artists on PA is a great treat. Iīve discovered some real treasures in that genre.
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Padraic
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:27 |
Disclaimer: I don't know the Scorpions material at all, save for the odd handful of popular FM radio tracks some 20 years ago.
But to me it sounds like a case where they should either make it into Heavy Prog (or whatever) if their early output (the oft cited Lonesome Crow album) is deemed to be "fully" prog, or not make the cut. As I said, it's one thing for an artist to have little prog output to be included in a prog category - if a band has a few "prog-related" (whatever that is supposed to even mean) albums amidst a catalog that's quite removed from anything prog rock, they shouldn't be here.
I have no problem saying "Prog or Bust" to a good many of these types of artists.
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debrewguy
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:18 |
But are the Scorpions really just another case of "too well known, shouldn't be here for that fact" ? I keep seeing arguements as to the lack of merit, and how this can open the floodgates to poor choices But I don't see any views from detractors that mention Lonesome Crow, nor the Uli Roth era albums. AND those are the reasons that the Scorpions are being considered for. True, there are tons of early 70s hard rockers that had aspects of their sound that could lead to being suggested for admission here at PA. But then, did Atomic Rooster or others face the "kinda mighta, almost were sorta prog for a bit, then went back to basics" debate ? Check out the earlyalbums. Again, remind yourself that the Scorpions are not being rated on the album "Savage Amusement" . This is really the point fo contention. Not whether certain popular bands some abhor should be excluded simply on the basis that they have enough fame.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:55 |
^ perhaps you could narrow down the list to the 5 most important bands. I think this would be something that people could understand ...
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Raff
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:51 |
There are reasons for our position as HP team. The lack of a clear policy is compounded by the fact that, especially in the early Seventies, there were literally OODLES of bands (mainly in the heavy psych vein) that were in some way or the other related to heavy prog. If we decided to submit one for inclusion in PR; we would probably have to add the whole lot of them - and I don't think this would be in any way productive for the site, beyond inflating a category that is much too confused as things are.
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UMUR
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Joined: October 19 2007
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:41 |
I trust the admin team makes the right cuts. The filter that means that only special collabs can suggest artists to the admin team for prog-related is pretty efficient IMO. This means that a lot of thought has been put into the proces of adding a prog-related artist to the archives. Itīs not all additions I agree with, but you win some and you lose some. We are all victims to subjective opinions and no matter how much you try to be objective when evaluating an artist lots of factors will have effect on your decision. As it is today the prog-related suggestions go through two filters and I think that should provide enough safety that the right bands are added to PA. As Raff said she refuse to submit any bands rejected by Heavy Prog for inclusion in PR and thatīs filter enough for me. Personally I think itīs a bit hard and I hope there are a few exceptions but generally I agree with that view. We should generally respect the teams decisions and by very careful that we donīt undermine the great work of those teams. But there are exceptions IMO and thatīs what we need Prog-related for.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:40 |
NaturalScience wrote:
UMUR wrote:
Speaking in more general terms ( I donīt know enough about The Scorpions to say if my below opinion aplies to them) about Prog-related I have the opinion that even if a band that have released thirty albums that are non-prog and only one that qualifies as prog-related they should be on PA. |
With all due respect, NO FREAKING WAY. It's bad enough we have to do this with an artist with one prog album and a whole bunch of non-prog in the discog. If an artist has virtually an entire catalog that has nothing to do with prog but one finds a single album that is sorta maybe a little bit related to prog, then sorry, they don't make the cut.
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Agreed. As much as many users here resent the "if X is here then Y must be added too" rule ... it's valid. If you add one artist that is only vaguely related to prog on one album of many, then for consistency alone you'll have to add all other artists which meet the same requirements. I think the solution must be that *if* such artists are added, they must be of special importance from a prog standpoint. I don't see this type of relevance for Scorpions ... nor for Helloween.
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UMUR
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Joined: October 19 2007
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:26 |
It should be a case to case evaluation as it is today.
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Padraic
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:19 |
UMUR wrote:
Speaking in more general terms ( I donīt know enough about The Scorpions to say if my below opinion aplies to them) about Prog-related I have the opinion that even if a band that have released thirty albums that are non-prog and only one that qualifies as prog-related they should be on PA. |
With all due respect, NO FREAKING WAY. It's bad enough we have to do this with an artist with one prog album and a whole bunch of non-prog in the discog. If an artist has virtually an entire catalog that has nothing to do with prog but one finds a single album that is sorta maybe a little bit related to prog, then sorry, they don't make the cut.
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Raff
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Points: 24429
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:13 |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:09 |
ROTFLMAO seriously. @Raff: I hope you find a way to take this easier ...
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
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Points: 3069
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:02 |
Speaking in more general terms ( I donīt know enough about The Scorpions to say if my below opinion aplies to them) about Prog-related I have the opinion that even if a band that have released thirty albums that are non-prog and only one that qualifies as prog-related they should be on PA. Itīs important to document that one album. As long as itīs made very clear in the "Why is this artist included in PA" section of the bio why the artist was included.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24429
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 09:28 |
AlexUC wrote:
Helloween for Krautrock? They're german too... that should be enough
No, seriously, I've seen the material, I don't think they
intended to sound progressive at all... That's my useless opinion. It's
curious, but I still can't understand what's the purpose of expanding
that 'prog related' subgenre with over-known artists, I mean, that's
just a bunch of disconnected artists IMHO, so what's the use of
expanding that genre? And do you think anybody needs to 'know'
Scorpios? Well, this is just the opinion of an outsider...
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You know, even if I've always been a supporter of PR, now I have to agree with you. Unfortunately, my attempts to raise awareness of the problem in the CZ fell flat as usual. Prog Related, as it is now, is not really useful or productive, and I for one have decided to refuse to submit any bands rejected by Heavy Prog for inclusion in PR. I think a different approach would be necessary when dealing artists who have released one or two progressive albums in the space of an un-prog career... Unfortunately, this is not my site, and I am not really keen on beating my head against the wall any longer.
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AlexUC
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 06 2007
Location: Noveria
Status: Offline
Points: 392
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Posted: February 06 2009 at 09:21 |
Helloween for Krautrock? They're german too... that should be enough
No, seriously, I've seen the material, I don't think they
intended to sound progressive at all... That's my useless opinion. It's
curious, but I still can't understand what's the purpose of expanding
that 'prog related' subgenre with over-known artists, I mean, that's
just a bunch of disconnected artists IMHO, so what's the use of
expanding that genre? And do you think anybody needs to 'know'
Scorpios? Well, this is just the opinion of an outsider...
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This is not my beautiful house...
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Portland OR
Status: Offline
Points: 352
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Posted: February 05 2009 at 15:11 |
Seyo wrote:
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop.
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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Seyo
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 08 2004
Location: Bosnia
Status: Offline
Points: 1320
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Posted: February 05 2009 at 14:22 |
Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog...
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