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Queen By-Tor View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Suggested move - Coheed & Cambria OUT of PR
    Posted: January 29 2009 at 05:37
Yes, I went there.

Coheed & Cambria [C&C] were, in their day, one of the most controversial additions to ProgArchives that side of "Metallica". There were some who supported their addition and some that thought of it as treason - but you have to admit that these guys do play a modern form of prog, and a lot of people may simply be offended in the fact that they have a heck of a lot more airplay and record sales than the prog greats of old, or the newcomers to the scene like "Phideaux", "Shadow Circus" or even the more established acts like "Spock's Beard". Some, like myself, grew up with cliques of kids who were mainly 'punks' who walked around the highschools wearing C&C hoodies, t-shirts, and constantly talking about their music.

But let's put the hype and the popularity and the ill-placed 'emo' tags aside, shall we?

What if we were to evaluate this band as though they were fresh out of the gates with no followers and no high budget MTV music videos - where would we place this band? They have a ton of prog in them - as someone who owns all of their albums (skeptical at first) I can say that they have many different facets and while some people see them mainly as a pop group thanks to 'hits' like Favor House Atlantic or The Suffering what great prog group didn't do that kind of thing in their day? Hell, even the coveted ELP debut had "Lucky Man" as its final track. This is beside the fact, because for every Ten Speed that the band has produced they've also doe a decidedly progressive track such as the excellent Keeping Secrets Of Silent Earth or 21:13.

The band's influences are highly obvious. They play a Rushly type style and in their behind the scenes videos can even be seen wearing King Crimson attire - this does not make the move any more warranted, but it does go to show that they do have respect for the genre and they're not just a bunch of flunkies who would rather wear a "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt as some people may believe that they do.

In the state of our modern archives I believe that there is a perfect fit for the band. The subgenre that so beautifully mixes genres with a tinge of contemporary music - Crossover Prog, which did not yet exist when the band was first added. While Crossover is not simply a dumping ground for those bands 'not prog enough' to be put in Symphonic but 'too prog' to be put in Related, it is a perfect fit in this case. They have similarities to other bands in the genre - such as the excellent Pavlov's Dog, they have a popish flavor to them mixed in with a highly progressive touch, and they even have gone so far as to create multi-part suites which I have seen praised in reviews for being "seperate, yet cohesive". The band's lastest effort can be seen as a perfect fit for the genre, as can their earlier work such as "In Keeping Secrets Of Silent Earth: III". Like a certain frontman of one of our crossover artists noted - (RJP of 3RDegree) "We take perfectly good prog songs and ruin them with our pop influences" - and that's what's great about it!

Quote Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk. Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication, sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is often on a par with established Prog acts. Much like their kin in the established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form.

The defining characteristics of Crossover Prog are a pop music influence that is largely vacant in typical prog rock. Songs tend toward shorter, more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern. The harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic structures may be more easily digested in Crossover while not losing the musical integrity that a prog listener expects. Whereas Prog Related bands are generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly progressive with elements of popular music.


So empty your mind of preconcieved ideas about the band and listen to one of their albums. I think you'll find that they are capable of surprising you. So, I'm going to ask the Xover team to (re?)evaluate this band. I hope that I have not shocked them to death with this post Wink.



Comments are welcome.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 05:44
At first I read "out of PA". I'm dissapointed, that would've been one hell of a thread! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 06:29
Have things to do now, but I'll answer quickly by saying that Micky and I were talking about that just a couple of days ago. He is at work now, but I'm quite sure he and his team will be willing to reassess the band for a possible move to Xover.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 08:13
Mr. Playing With Fire Wink

Having heard one or two songs by the band, I'm afraid I don't have an informed opinion. I'm sure they'll be given a fair trial though LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 10:31
"Welcome Home" is one of my favorite modern metal songs, and I admittedly have not listened to alot of their music, but what is prog about them? If SOAD is decidedly out on this site, how did Coheed and Cambria get in?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 10:55
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

"Welcome Home" is one of my favorite modern metal songs, and I admittedly have not listened to alot of their music, but what is prog about them? If SOAD is decidedly out on this site, how did Coheed and Cambria get in?
 
 


Please don't! This thread is about moving Coheed & Cambria to Heavy Prog Xover, not about asking why Coheed & Cambria entered and System of a Down not. It's quite irrespectful to change the thread's topic, just because you're suggestion wasn't added.


Edited by cacho - January 29 2009 at 11:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 11:35

My question is about Coheed and Cambria, and the question is a move to Crossover Prog rather than Heavy Prog (which seems more appropriate if any move is to be made.)

From the definition above, Crossover prog is music that "though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music." Peter Gabriel, Steely Dan, Supertramp make perfect sense for this category. It also seems the proper place for Radiohead if they are to be here.
 
I like Coheed and Cambria, and I will try to listen to some more music before rendering more opinions, but I'm pretty skeptical at this point. Just because I like it doesn't make it prog. (Ani Difranco is extremely adventurous in much of her music, but trying to call her prog folk would be pushing it)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 11:51
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

 
I like Coheed and Cambria, and I will try to listen to some more music before rendering more opinions, but I'm pretty skeptical at this point. Just because I like it doesn't make it prog. (Ani Difranco is extremely adventurous in much of her music, but trying to call her prog folk would be pushing it)


I don't know their music. My response was that, why mention the band you once tried to add, but it was rejected, and come with the typical "if x, why not y". And I'm sure Mike By-Tor knows the music well, and he's not a fanboy(and if he is, he's not trying to move it because that) of the band and I'm sure he doesn't want to move the band to Xover for "fanboyism reasons". I'm not saying that what he says is 100% correct, but he must have created this thread for something, of course, if the move is rejected, that doesn't mean that the Xover team isn't "good" or 100% correct(because nobody is), just different point of views of music, and this means that neither of both are incorrect. But this is just with the hypothetical case if the move is rejected.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 11:56
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

I'm sure they'll be given a fair trial though LOL
 
...before being hung on the scaffold in the town square, Linus...WinkLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:01
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

My question is about Coheed and Cambria, and the question is a move to Crossover Prog rather than Heavy Prog (which seems more appropriate if any move is to be made.)

From the definition above, Crossover prog is music that "though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music." Peter Gabriel, Steely Dan, Supertramp make perfect sense for this category. It also seems the proper place for Radiohead if they are to be here.
 
I like Coheed and Cambria, and I will try to listen to some more music before rendering more opinions, but I'm pretty skeptical at this point. Just because I like it doesn't make it prog. (Ani Difranco is extremely adventurous in much of her music, but trying to call her prog folk would be pushing it)


They're already on the website, I'm just asking that they be relocated to somewhere more appropriate. If you'd read my original post then you'd know what I think makes them progressive enough to be considered for the subgenre.

If you want to make an argument for SOAD then do it in a new thread. They've been suggested before and have not made it in.

Anyways:

I'd really hate to use the old "If X then Y" arguement, but we do have their little brother 3 in Xover, and those two bands are basically one and the same. They use they same style and have the same tenancies
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:02
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

I'm sure they'll be given a fair trial though LOL
 
...before being hung on the scaffold in the town square, Linus...WinkLOL


Hey, just be glad I didn't throw them at your team Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:04
^ Goodness, we do have a reputation to upholdLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:06
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

I'm sure they'll be given a fair trial though LOL
 
...before being hung on the scaffold in the town square, Linus...WinkLOL


Hey, just be glad I didn't throw them at your team Wink
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 12:26
I am more then a little surprised that 3 and COHEED aren't in the same sub-genre.I mean they aren't identical or anything but are closely related.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:05
I did read your original post.
 
Johnny Rotten would roll over in his drug-induced haze to know what gets considered punk these days, (I actually listened to PiL back in the day so don't go after the details, it's just a point) and C&C are neither punk nor prog. It's some nice pop rock with enough variation to keep my interest, but little really new to offer. The guitars are using modern tone but are playing very well worn patterns in straight time including more chugging on the E-string than.....oh well. Just because the guy sounds like Geddy Lee doesn't make them prog.
 
I didn't mention SOAD to open a new topic, I just use them as a reference point as where the line is drawn. I asked and many others asked that question and it's answered. I accept it and I'm not going to bring it up again, other than as a refernce point.
 
But it's not up to me it's up to the Xover team.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:08
If you could please state your arguments as to WHY you think that they're not prog instead of simply saying "They aren't". I wrote a friggen essay to validate my statement, the least you could do is respond to my valid points. While it is up to the Xover team, if you're passionate about them not being moved them make a statement which they will no doubt consider.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:13
Well... I'll have to give No World for Tomorrow another listen - to be honest I thought they were borderline up to From Fear Through The Eyes Of Madness (with that being their proggiest) with No World for Tomorrow pushing them further towards PR, but it's been a while since I last heard it.
 
However, '3' is a good point - I'll bear them in mind when re-evaluating (perhaps we should just swap them overWink) ((however I only have one 3 CD to judge them by and that wouldn't be fair))
 
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:20
Thanks Dean - I'm glad someone is taking the suggestion seriously.


Unfortunately I only have the one 3 album as well (The End Is Begun), and while the "X then Y" arguement is not the one I want to stress the most I think it would be nice to listen to C&C within the same context at 3 - a lesser known band who blends together modern styles (to actually make some money while doing it - which IS NOT a crime) with older tenancies to make something unique.

Something else to consider: would people be more apt to add them if "The Velourium Camper", "The Willing Well" and "The End Complete" were solid tracks instead of split parts of a suite? Aka: if they have a track that ran 12, 20 or 27 minutes (respectively)?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:32
The End Has Begun is the one I have too (and I wasn't taken with it to be frank)
 
I don't think track-format has much to do with how an album sounds (I can't fathom The Mars Volta format for example or the Pain Of Salvation triptic approach to track layout, but it doesn't affect my appreciation of the music)
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 13:51
Today Micky will be working late - I don't know what time he'll be back home, but I suspect no earlier than 6 or 7 p.m. Therefore, if Dean and Chris want to start having a go, please by all means do. I'm sure all of the members of the Xover team will judge the band in purely MUSICAL terms, and not on the basis of other factors.
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