Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

Windhawk wrote: omri wrote: A true comparison should only deal with civilians. Not all of the 1300 were civilians (means - not victims). Not quite updated those numbers, but last I saw from the UN were 1010 civilian Palestinian victims since December 27th 2008.

Numbers probably conveniently supported by Hamas.

I'm not going to cover everything you mentioned, since omri got most of it, and I agree with the majority of things he said. But I honestly wonder why you keep butchering facts that simply aren't true. The reason that Israel had troops in Gaza for so long was because if they took those forces out, they knew Hamas would move in and start launching rockets at them. Other than that, I can't think of a single time where Israel has tried to invade their neighbors. Actually, last time I checked, it's been the other way around every single stinkin' time!

Also, why does this thread keep revolving around what Israel has done "wrong"? The Palestinians and Hamas are to blame for more of these problems than Israel. Makes me sick.

Actually, it was the other way around at first. A brief section from Wikipedia on the Six-Day War, which it seems you are referring to:

In May 1967, Egypt's president Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula.^[7] The peacekeeping force had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion which was launched during the Suez Crisis. Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border^[8] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.^[9] On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack^[10] against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.^[11][12][13] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

So I believe that YOU were the one who was wrong. Egypt was preparing to invade Israel, so Israel counterattacked. Syria and Jordan also decided to attack Israel, and Israel soundly defeated three armies in a period of a very short time. Those three countries have yet to mess with Israel again, and I wonder why.

As for your analogy, if you throw a stone at my car, then no, of course I'm not going to empty an entire 9mm magazine into you. Your analogy doesn't fit the current situation, as this is a conflict that is much more about throwing a single stone or a single clip from a gun, since this has technically been going on ever since modern-day Israel was founded. The situation really amounts to a few thousand rocks and many, many bullets.

I don't know how many more times I'm going to have to repeat this, but Hamas uses civilians as human shields. To us Westerners, this seems despicable, but that's because we expect war to be a neat little game that's cleaned up and put in a shiny package with a bright red bow on top for us to open and observe. The reality is that these people care nothing about our laws, the Geneva Convention, etc etc and believe in wiping Israel off the map no matter what the cost (although I personally don't think the Geneva Convention adequately addresses terrorism but that's another issue). To them, sharia law will always rule and to hell with anyone who doesn't agree with us and so on and so forth.

Israel has yet to commit any war crimes from what I've seen. But then again, I tend to form my own opinions on what I read and take any reporter's article with a grain of salt unless I know enough about the subject myself. In the end, I can't tell you what to believe or not to believe, but I do question where you get your facts and statistics.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: I don't know how many more times I'm going to have to repeat this, but Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

Well, this has yet to be proven. United Nations has asked Israel for proofs. They have not given United Nations or even Amnesty International this proof. It is an unproven claim and just that. As the jews themselves knows too well....... unproven claims kills. Yesterday's Holocaust day is the best example of that. A certain book called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was full of claims like you are referring to. That book killed millions of jews. Both before and during WWII. As a matter of fact; also after WWII.

That's why I am not willing to go there and repeat the same mistake again. Two wrongs does not make one right.

 

toroddfuglesteg wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: I don't know how many more times I'm going to have to repeat this, but Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Well, this has yet to be proven.

 What kind of proof do you want? Launching a rocket from an area populated by civilians is not using them as human shields? I bet you a quatloo -- if Hamas went into the open, there would be no civilian casualties. And there would be no Hamas.

IVNORD wrote: toroddfuglesteg wrote:   Yesterday's Holocaust day is the best example of that. A certain book called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was full of claims like you are referring to. That book killed millions of jews. Both before and during WWII. As a matter of fact; also after WWII.   What are you talking about?

If you don't know the past; you will repeat it's mistakes. You will repeat Holocaust. You will repeat the Warsaw ghetto. You will repeat the words and means of Dr. Goebbels. 

I know the past and I have seen things during the last months which truly disgust me. No human being with any knowledge of the past can accept what has happend. None. 

Yeah, there's a lot of bad stuff happening in the UN. Rampant corruption for starters; quite a few sought after war criminals have been sifted through the UN refugee system and been given the chance to start new lives due to some money and/or favours changing hands in there for instances.

Omri. 

I understand, respect and actually support what you are writing. If/when the Finns (Finland) declared Norway as their West Coast, I would act like yourself. 

As one of those who are permanently denied visa to China (and probably North-Korea and Cuba too), I think it is fair to say that I have voiced an opinion against them. I will probably get a visa to Israel without any problems because my issue is neither with the jews or Israel itself. My issue is with those who ignore and even defies the High Court in Israel and those who believe another human race is less worth than their own dogs. Racism in any sort or form is not acceptable. 

The hatred is huge on both sides and I do not like to even put my opinion across in this loonatic asylum. But this situation calls for cold heads and cold hearts. I hope Mr. Obama will move things forward.  

^ Single world governance in inevitable, directly or in a U.N.-esque way.

Silly buggers, down there.

toroddfuglesteg wrote: Omri.  I understand, respect and actually support what you are writing. If/when the Finns (Finland) declared Norway as their West Coast, I would act like yourself.  As one of those who are permanently denied visa to China (and probably North-Korea and Cuba too), I think it is fair to say that I have voiced an opinion against them. I will probably get a visa to Israel without any problems because my issue is neither with the jews or Israel itself. My issue is with those who ignore and even defies the High Court in Israel and those who believe another human race is less worth than their own dogs. Racism in any sort or form is not acceptable.  The hatred is huge on both sides and I do not like to even put my opinion across in this loonatic asylum. But this situation calls for cold heads and cold hearts. I hope Mr. Obama will move things forward.