Amp/Guitar modeling and related discussion thread

Okay, when I think of a name I'll change the thread title to someone not silly, but I have no idea where this is going to lead.
First off, gotta grab some posts from another thread and put 'em in here.

EDIT: Okay, more suitable title up.


Edited by HughesJB4 - January 26 2009 at 00:24

I have a V-Amp II which I use for my Les Paul custom and Ibanez RG1570L and it does justice to both these models in different ways. I don't know why the V-Amp gets such a poor rap here. For me it works beautifully through my Behringer mixer, pa amp and speakers. 

Sure, there are better modelers out there. For only a few dollars more than the V-Amp2, you could get the Line 6 Pocket Pod. However, ALL modelers are compromised when compared to the real thing. None of the modelers I've used over the past decade (Pod 2.0, PodXT, J-Station, DG-Stomp, V-Amp2) have had the same  feel as a good tube amp (natural breakup when overdriven, reaction to the players picking technique, etc.). So considering that, the VAmp-2 is still a bargain.  

Well, before I get into Mike's post, I'd like to throw some stuff out there.

I'm using the Behringer V-amp 2 right now, released in 2002 and was designed to compete head to head with the Line 6 POD 2.0.
I've tried the POD 2.0 and if I must be honest, some of the amp models were completely unusable and despite being twice the price of the V-amp 2, I felt it was actually an inferior product sound wise, although clearly much better build quality, which is where the extra price comes in.

The V-Amp 2 admittedly also has some rather appalling and IMO, totally unusable amp and cabinet simulations, but for my needs, it gets me a better sound than a POD 2.0.
Going through the cab simulations in the V-Amp 2, I found about 10  or 11 out of a possible 15 to be unusable, but fortunately I have no real desire to even want to really use that many cab sims, so fortunately those 4-5 other sims work for me right now.
Of the amp sims I found the JCM800 model to be shockingly bad. Doesn't even sound remotely like a real JCM800 at all. A real JCM800 will blow your face apart, but this was just piss weak sounding and just complete wrong and totally lacking in dynamics.
It just sounds like they mixed a bunch of crap amps in one and called it an amp sim really.
The Soldano SLO-100 model, although I've never heard the real deal amp before, is actually pretty good for what it is, and quite usuable for lead tones, and easily better than the Line 6 POD 2.0 SLO 100 simulation.
I use the Dual Rectifier model for rhythm tones. The sound is actually not that bad, but compared to the real deal Dual Recto, it honestly doesn't really get there.
Really lacking in dynamics, the EQ-ing just feels weird and wrong, but overall the amp sim is usuable, although far from being particularly good.
I can't say I use any other amp sims other than the generic V-amp 2 clean setting that comes with it, that's my sound really.

But fast forward to today's amp modelers and you'll see the landscape has changed.
Behringer basically left the amp simulation market a few years ago. Sure, they still make the V-Amp 2 and their modeling amps, but the company no longer seems interested in developing their amp simulation products, so they are effectively out of the game.
Korg, well basically everyone I know that has owned a Korg modeling unit has sold it as soon as they could and it seems barely anyone owns these. Pretty much everyone I've spoke to about them says they are pretty mediocre sounding at best.
There was the Johnson J Station that was released quite a few years ago, but it appears Johnson basically just left the J Station as it was and never developed it further and I don't know anyone that owns one of them either, I guess people sold them or just never even heard about the company in the first place and never bought one.

This basically leaves us with Line 6, Boss, Fractal Audio Systems, Digitech and Zoom for hardware modelers.
I've never tried the Digitech GSP 1101 which is the flagship of the Digitech amp modeling line.
They are priced about 30 per cent or around that figure above the Line 6 X3 Live and Boss GT-10 and seem extremely well featured.
Professional guitarists are even using these things for their preamp, which says a lot about them and reports from users suggest they are a great unit for guys into the really high gain stuff, which really captured my interest.
I think it may actually be a competitor to the X3 POD Pro, because it's certainly not in the same price range, it's a rackmount unit and you need to buy a seperate unit to switch channels on it. I guess it's more marketed towards seasoned players more so than the X3 Live and Boss GT-10, and because of the price, don't think I'll buy one, unless I saw a great deal on one, maybe I'll change my mind.

I've decided against purchasing the GT-10 because it seems no one is impressed by the high gain amp models, which is what I need. Well featured unit and if it sounds better than the GT-8, it certainly can't sound bad, but I shall give it a miss.

I basically narrowed it down to the X3 Live, and I will be able to find one of these below RRP fortunately.
The latest firmware was well received by many X3 users I've spoke too, and many people that nearly sold their X3 decided to keep it after getting the update.
Some of the high gain clips I've heard from the X3, are quite simply, very impressive indeed. I can understand why it's so popular among members of Sevenstring.org and Metalguitarist.org. It seems almost no one at those forum boards have a GT-10 unless it's for the effects only, but plenty of guys are using the X3 Live for their main tone, effects and recording capabilities.
A lot of guys there actually don't use the cab sims at all, prefering to buy a cab loaded with speakers of their choice and using that instead of cab sims. I guess considering the needs of 7 and 8 string guitarists, needing a cab and speakers capable of delivering a tight low end is far more important than for 6 string players, which seems to be what the majority of Line 6 forum board people use.
Some people are using tube power amps with their X3 Live as well, and not always a solid state one like you'd expect, but apparently it works well and some feel the tube coloration can actually have a positive effect on the tone.
It's definitely been an interesting time around now, some 18 months after the release of the X3 Live, and seeing the reviews, hearing the sound clips, hearing about problems, hearing about people enjoying their unit and seeing what rigs people use with them,


EDIT: Well, as you can tell, Behringer has decided to stay in the amp modeling game and has released the next gen of V-Amp.



Edited by HughesJB4 - February 16 2009 at 00:52

Wow, I missed the VOX amp modelers. They aren't as common and I admit they didn't come to mind instantly.
Thanks for catching me on that.
Two of the Zoom amp modelers also feature real tubes built into the units too. I tend to think it does help in the tone in a real way as well, not just there for marketing hype and looks.

The Vox Tonelab is excellent! At $300 it's still less expensive than the Line 6 Pod XTLive. I haven't used any of the Zoom modelers yet, but I may try one out someday soon. Their multi fx units have been quite good over the years.

Edited by jimidom - February 13 2009 at 10:17

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ indeed, like this one: http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/g71ut/. But there's an important difference compared to the VOX Tonelab. The Zoom modelers use the tube as a preamp, while the Tonelab uses it to simulate a real tube amp. In tube amps the tubes interact with the cabinet, and the simulation of this interaction is the unique feature of the Tonelab. I must say that it sounds really nice! Ultimately though, I think that in the meantime the purely digital modelers have advanced significantly (the Tonelab was introduced in 2003).

Ahh, thanks for point out the difference in the use of tubes there.

There is an Australian guitarist, Jeremy Barnes, that uses a G9.2tt and when I saw him doing a clinic he was using that as his main tone device put through a Traynor tube combo, sounded pretty good (I was about 15 meters from the stage too) but it somehow came across as slightly flat sounding and not quite as good as a true tube amp tone (the Traynor amp is not a high gain amp btw, he uses the clean channel of it and the G9.2tt), but nonetheless, it seemed good enough for this guy and he's a professional gigging musician.

For any interested, this is in the coming soon list from behringer:

^ I'm thrilled about the direct monitoring ... see my thread about the subject in the Line 6 support forum:

http://line6.com/support/thread.jspa?threadID=54054&tstart=0

My only problem with the Behringer: I didn't read anything about a software plugin ... that would be the icing on the cake.

DaleHauskins wrote: This working Los Angeles guitarist has been using for some time the latest from Roland the Boss GT-10  http://www.roland.com/products/com/GT-10/images/top_L.jpg http://www.roland.com/products/en/GT-10/index.html After using for tours,and tracking sessions the GT-8 for a year 1/2; I LOVE the my new updated GT-10 pedalboard (No more tone sucking!) Any Line 6 pedalboard when tracking/recording either from a decent tube amp or direct, comes out sounding much like a fly. Tschüßlly

"Any Line 6 pedalboard when tracking/recording either from a decent tube amp or direct, comes out sounding much like a fly"


I have to say it, this is absolutely ridiculous.
You sound as if, you tried using the original POD released in 1998, just said "nah, doesn't sound good, I'm switching to Boss" and then never bothering to try anything else Line 6 made.
I tell you know, they have come a long way from their beginnings.

I can guarantee you , you will find sound clips of the X3 that sound absolutely massive if you take the time to look.
In fact, a certain Porcupine Tree album was done entirely with Line 6 amp simulations.....still sounds pretty huge to me
Most amp modeling users I've spoken to agree the X3 does a far superior high gain tone than the X3, which is why you barely see that many metal guitarists using a Boss GT-10, while the Boss GT-10 is better for mid gain sounds.
Simply, anyone that can't get a massive recorded tone out of the X3, hasn't put the time in.