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jimmy_row 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
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Points: 2601
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 Posted: January 23 2009 at 16:56 |
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 23 2009 at 17:06 |
The economy is largely in the tank because productivity has been going up but the benefits haven't been shared with the workers, not because workers are overpaid or demand too much. Unions have largely been crushed and marginalized. Everyone does better when everyone does better. When those at the top become leeches eventually they put the system into a downward spiral. This is exactly what happened with the great depression.
Edited by Slartibartfast - January 23 2009 at 17:08
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: January 23 2009 at 19:30 |
Unions have been marginalized? That's news to me. Last I saw they have quite a bit of power. I think we need unions for the economy to function properly, but what these unions have become is much different than the original intention. I'm not "up" on the whole philosophical background about economics and capitalism, but I'm not sure if your idea that "everyone does better..." is true these days what with limited resources and competition. Some things don't sound pretty but that doesn't make them untrue.
oh, and please explain how inadequate benefits has to do with the economic situation. I'm interested.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 23 2009 at 20:13 |
 jimmy_row wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
^ After all the support the 18-25 age group gave Barack, I sure hope he gives us a lil' somethin' |
But that's not the point of government. Too many people these days have got this notion of "Well the government is supposed to give me 'stuff'". Wrong. The government owes you nothing. If you want something, get a good education and be willing to work your ass off for what you want. I'm in college right now as well. I went in with a scholarship, but I ended up transferring after my first year, so I no longer have a scholarship. Although considering the fact that I work my ass off in school and get good grades so that I will one day get a job where I can support myself. I spent last summer working a full-time job (yes, 40 hours/week) in a factory. That really taught me something about how much the government takes out of your paycheck. As for what jammun said, I can understand you wanting to hope your son's future will mean something more than paying back college debt, but if you've taught him good values and to work hard as he was growing up, then I imagine he'll do fine. Granted I don't have any kids myself since I'm only 19 and therefore I probably can't fully understand how you feel.
But back to the original point, jimmy mentioning that he hopes Obama will "give us a lil
somethin'"....well, don't get your hopes up. Also, you mentioning that made me think of a question I really want to ask you and may give me more insight into why you said what you said: What do you think the role of government is?
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Easy killer, I didn't want to spark any bicep-flexing, value-hurling speech out of anyone But since IVNORD asked the question....I guess I would "ask" (note: not DEMAND or EXPECT from the gov't) for affordable schooling for those who are willing to work hard at an education (that's not for everyone). So yea, I guess I'm a red-handed commie now. And some kind of economic relief for folks who work hard as opposed to sitting around asking for help. We need to reinforce characteristics that will make the workforce stronger and hopefully the economy. |
There's no such thing as a free lunch. It's not like Obama is some sotr of Santa claus giving away nice gifts in unlimited quantities. Everything you get from the government is paid by you. |
That's basically what I'm saying. If we pay for lunch, then we damn well deserve some good food. I'm not one to ask for more than I'm willing to work for, but I usually expect people to be rewarded for what they do. |
We don't pay for lunch yet. But chances are we will soon.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 23 2009 at 20:16 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
The economy is largely in the tank because productivity has been going up but the benefits haven't been shared with the workers, not because workers are overpaid or demand too much. |
Are you serious this time? If you are, it's the most amusing explanation of the problem.
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: January 23 2009 at 21:17 |
IVNORD wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
^ After all the support the 18-25 age group gave Barack, I sure hope he gives us a lil' somethin' |
But that's not the point of government. Too many people these days have got this notion of "Well the government is supposed to give me 'stuff'". Wrong. The government owes you nothing. If you want something, get a good education and be willing to work your ass off for what you want. I'm in college right now as well. I went in with a scholarship, but I ended up transferring after my first year, so I no longer have a scholarship. Although considering the fact that I work my ass off in school and get good grades so that I will one day get a job where I can support myself. I spent last summer working a full-time job (yes, 40 hours/week) in a factory. That really taught me something about how much the government takes out of your paycheck. As for what jammun said, I can understand you wanting to hope your son's future will mean something more than paying back college debt, but if you've taught him good values and to work hard as he was growing up, then I imagine he'll do fine. Granted I don't have any kids myself since I'm only 19 and therefore I probably can't fully understand how you feel.
But back to the original point, jimmy mentioning that he hopes Obama will "give us a lil
somethin'"....well, don't get your hopes up. Also, you mentioning that made me think of a question I really want to ask you and may give me more insight into why you said what you said: What do you think the role of government is?
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Easy killer, I didn't want to spark any bicep-flexing, value-hurling speech out of anyone But since IVNORD asked the question....I guess I would "ask" (note: not DEMAND or EXPECT from the gov't) for affordable schooling for those who are willing to work hard at an education (that's not for everyone). So yea, I guess I'm a red-handed commie now. And some kind of economic relief for folks who work hard as opposed to sitting around asking for help. We need to reinforce characteristics that will make the workforce stronger and hopefully the economy. |
There's no such thing as a free lunch. It's not like Obama is some sotr of Santa claus giving away nice gifts in unlimited quantities. Everything you get from the government is paid by you. |
That's basically what I'm saying. If we pay for lunch, then we damn well deserve some good food. I'm not one to ask for more than I'm willing to work for, but I usually expect people to be rewarded for what they do. |
We don't pay for lunch yet. But chances are we will soon. |
We don't pay...Taxes?? I must have midunderstood the metaphor  
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 05:58 |
I'm going to have to put a stop to these ever growing quote pyramids and not quote anyone.  That old capitalist Henry Ford illustrates well the principle I'm making. He paid his workers enough so that they could actually afford to buy the product they were making, so he could sell more and that generated an upward economic spiral. Driving down wages and benefits of workers means they have less resources to buy goods and services and that produces a downward economic spiral. Now on a less serious note:
and here's one that might make you conservatives laugh:
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 08:40 |
jimmy_row wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
^ After all the support the 18-25 age group gave Barack, I sure hope he gives us a lil' somethin' |
But that's not the point of government. Too many people these days have got this notion of "Well the government is supposed to give me 'stuff'". Wrong. The government owes you nothing. If you want something, get a good education and be willing to work your ass off for what you want. I'm in college right now as well. I went in with a scholarship, but I ended up transferring after my first year, so I no longer have a scholarship. Although considering the fact that I work my ass off in school and get good grades so that I will one day get a job where I can support myself. I spent last summer working a full-time job (yes, 40 hours/week) in a factory. That really taught me something about how much the government takes out of your paycheck. As for what jammun said, I can understand you wanting to hope your son's future will mean something more than paying back college debt, but if you've taught him good values and to work hard as he was growing up, then I imagine he'll do fine. Granted I don't have any kids myself since I'm only 19 and therefore I probably can't fully understand how you feel.
But back to the original point, jimmy mentioning that he hopes Obama will "give us a lil
somethin'"....well, don't get your hopes up. Also, you mentioning that made me think of a question I really want to ask you and may give me more insight into why you said what you said: What do you think the role of government is?
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Easy killer, I didn't want to spark any bicep-flexing, value-hurling speech out of anyone But since IVNORD asked the question....I guess I would "ask" (note: not DEMAND or EXPECT from the gov't) for affordable schooling for those who are willing to work hard at an education (that's not for everyone). So yea, I guess I'm a red-handed commie now. And some kind of economic relief for folks who work hard as opposed to sitting around asking for help. We need to reinforce characteristics that will make the workforce stronger and hopefully the economy. |
There's no such thing as a free lunch. It's not like Obama is some sotr of Santa claus giving away nice gifts in unlimited quantities. Everything you get from the government is paid by you. |
That's basically what I'm saying. If we pay for lunch, then we damn well deserve some good food. I'm not one to ask for more than I'm willing to work for, but I usually expect people to be rewarded for what they do. |
We don't pay for lunch yet. But chances are we will soon. |
We don't pay...Taxes?? I must have midunderstood the metaphor |
Taxes we pay today are for the entitlements we already have however "lil" you may think they are. If you want more of "a lil somethin" you will have to pay for it too. It's not like those entitlement programs are as manna from heaven and can be given to us for free, they cost money. If we get "free" healthcare, or "free" education, or any other f**king "free" thing, ultimately WE will pay for them with higher taxes.
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 09:02 |
Hey, fellows, this issue is very interesting but the pyramids are making me (and I guess more people too) have a hard time to follow the discussion. Thanks for the understanding. 
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Guigo
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 09:23 |
Well, nothing really beats the quote pyramids with multi-colored interjections to make you go 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 09:29 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
That old capitalist Henry Ford illustrates well the principle I'm making. He paid his workers enough so that they could actually afford to buy the product they were making, so he could sell more and that generated an upward economic spiral. Driving down wages and benefits of workers means they have less resources to buy goods and services and that produces a downward economic spiral.
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This is exactly the same thing I mention whenevr I talk about the dawn of the mass markets. Not that Henry Ford discovered them, but he was one of the pioneers who saw the benefits of mass production and volume sales. Before him, the cost of a hand-assembled car was at astronomical $5,000. He paid his workers $5 a day, an unprecedented amount at the time, and in return, demanded (and received) higher productivity, and kept the lion's share of profits. Given that at the time workers' take of the profits was miniscule, the $5 a day payout, however small it still was, enabled his workers to buy his cars at $500 a piece thus increasing the pool of his consumers and his profits.
Present situation is drastically different. With today's portion of labor cost ranging between 45% and 60% of the unit of production value (the upper end records belong to your beloved unions whose "crushing" you mourn so dutifully) there is very little room for further salary increases. Contrary to what you say, the high labor cost IS the problem as it encourages foreign competition, from Japanese cars to outsourcing. The current process of "Driving down wages and benefits of workers " is a natural process, as opposed to raising salaries, which would be artificial. There is no reason why a GM worker who installs a bumper should be given a raise to his already hefty $75/h while his Japanese counterpart gets only $40 for the same task.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 09:30 |
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 10:49 |
Epignosis wrote:
As a staunch conservative, here's my honest feeling:
I didn't vote for the guy, nor do I like many of his policies.
But he is my president, and as such, I support him, pray for his wisdom and guidance, and hope he will do the best damn job a president can do. God bless him and his family.
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As a fellow staunch conservative, I will say I wish no ill upon him or his family, but as long as he intends on pushing our country toward a more socialistic government, I take on Rush Limbaugh's point of view. i hope his policies fail, so that in the future, we hopefully can remember why socialism doesn't work! Now if the man wants to fix the country by taking on a more conservative, smaller government sort of way, I am all for it....but we know that isn't going to happen
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:02 |
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Umm... you hope that his policies fail so that in the future you can remember why such policies fail....?
Or am I misunderstanding you and you mean that you hope that his policies fail to be implemented?
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:10 |
Visitor13 wrote:
Umm... you hope that his policies fail so that in the future you can remember why such policies fail....?
Or am I misunderstanding you and you mean that you hope that his policies fail to be implemented?
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I think he's saying that if Obama enacts a lot of socialist policies, he hopes that they fail because he doesn't believe that socialism works. Although maybe I understand what he's saying because I agree with him. 
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:11 |
Visitor13 wrote:
Umm... you hope that his policies fail so that in the future you can remember why such policies fail....?
Or am I misunderstanding you and you mean that you hope that his policies fail to be implemented?
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:18 |
IVNORD wrote:
Visitor13 wrote:
Umm... you hope that his policies fail so that in the future you can remember why such policies fail....?
Or am I misunderstanding you and you mean that you hope that his policies fail to be implemented?
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Thank you. Birdwithteeth: so it's only about the validation of one's beliefs, even at the cost of damage to one's country? BTW, I don't believe his policies will work, but would there really be anything wrong if they somehow did? After all, if they work, they work.
Edited by Visitor13 - January 24 2009 at 11:19
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:21 |
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I'm not saying by any means I want his policies to fail though. It would be great of they worked. I just don't expect them to work, because I don't believe that socialism works. Sorry for that confusion.
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
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Points: 4702
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 11:28 |
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^ No problem.
FWIW, I think neither candidate was up to the job, and the US voters should really start noticing that there are more than two political parties in their country. Not that this by itself is some magical solution, but it never hurts and often pays to be aware of all the available options.
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 24 2009 at 12:19 |
^I absolutely agree with you. Quite honestly I'm fed up with both parties, and even though our system is set up to the point where you'd need very large amounts of money, it would be hard to get a third party involved. Although I would be more than willing to try if one strong enough comes along someday when I have a disposable income. Another solution that I've thought about is eliminating professional politicians and setting term limits for all political offices. That way, the people who would go into office would be more concerned about doing their job properly and wouldn't be in it simply for self-interest. Granted that's probably never going to happen, but I can hope, right?
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