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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:35

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous

the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel.

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

Oh, I see. It's the BBC. Therefore they're never going to get a story wrong. They're always perfect people and perfect reporters. I agree with IVNORD. Reports like that are just a joke.I would take you more seriously if you gave your own opinion instead of giving us news flashes. Then we could have a serious discussion about this topic.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

Actually, I don't have one particular source of information I go to. Instead I simply read up on current events from a variety of sources and in the end sort out the facts from the myths and form my own opinion based on the issue. It has nothing to do with what the other person says. I'm naturally the type of person who takes anything said by any media or news outlet with a grain of salt until I get enough information about the topic myself. Call it cynical if you want, but that's how I am.

Edited by birdwithteeth11 - January 22 2009 at 17:45

IVNORD

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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:38

Easy Money wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...

By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???

I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.

He never said "Hamas killed." He said he "wouldn't be surprised." You asked him if he really thinks "hamas killed."

He didn't mean that he prefers someones opinion to the real news. He said since it sounds like nonsense better make a disclaimer.

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Joined: January 09 2008
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:39

Easy Money wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...

By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???

I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.

I love how I provided an answer to your question but you never provided an answer to his. Sure, you may be a moderator, but blatantly ignoring his question when he has asked you several times to answer it is something I would take quite disrespectfully if I were in IVNORD's shoes. The least you could respond with is either "Yes, I agree" or "No, I disagree, and here's why" And see my previous post for the answer to the second half of your post.

IVNORD

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Location: USA
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Points: 1191

Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:40

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

Actually, I don't have one particular source of information I go to. Instead I simply read up on current events from a variety of topics and in the end sort out the facts from the myths and form my own opinion based on the issue. It has nothing to do with what the other person says. I'm naturally the type of person who takes anything said by any media or news outlet with a grain of salt until I get enough information about the topic myself. Call it cynical if you want, but that's how I am.

Here he goes... I was typing while he posted the same thing

Easy Money View Drop Down

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Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:46

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...

By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???

I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.

What question did I not answer?

IVNORD

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Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:47

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...

By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???

I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.

Hey man, as has been discussed I don't expect an answer. And I don't take it personally

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598

Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:48

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...

By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???

I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.

What question did I not answer?

Do you think Israeli soldiers killed those women and children?

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
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Points: 24598

Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:49

IVNORD wrote:

Hey man, as has been discussed I don't expect an answer. And I don't take it personally

I understand if you don't take it personally. That's fine. I was just explaining how I would feel is all.

Edited by birdwithteeth11 - January 22 2009 at 17:49

Easy Money View Drop Down

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Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679

Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:54

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

mystic fred wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.

The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.

it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.

So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.

You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...

By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???

I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.

What question did I not answer?

Do you think Israeli soldiers killed those women and children?

As stated before, I don't know, I wasn't there and I have recieved very little information on this horrible tragedy so I have no idea.
I have a lot of family in the military who can give me some kind of insights to Iraq and Afghanistan, but despite having many Jewish and Zionist Christian family members, I don't have a direct link to what is happening in Gaza.

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Location: Kentucky
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Points: 24598

Posted: January 22 2009 at 18:10

I'm going to stop with this debate now.

You still haven't provided an answer to the question, as I wanted to know what you personally think about the issue based on what you know about it. What your family members or friends or acquaintances or anyone else you personally know has said about it doesn't matter to me. They aren't involved in the current discussion. Surely you at least have some opinion on Hamas. And based on what you know about them could very well provide you with an answer to that question.

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to seem disrespectful. I just don't want to continue this and end up getting frustrated.

Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: January 22 2009 at 18:32

I understand, but the only people who know who killed those children are the people who did it and any witnesses to the event.

What I think of Hamas is irrelevant to that fact.

mystic fred View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 02:16

well here's the report in full - i trust the BBC news more than any newspaper or forign news source, their world service is legendary, they can only rely on actual eye witnesses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7843307.stm

quote: "

Samar had been shot in the back at close range. The bullet damaged her spine, and she is unlikely to walk again.

At her bedside, her uncle Hassan told us the family had been ordered out of their home by Israeli soldiers who were shelling the neighbourhood.

A tank had parked in front of the house, where around 30 people were taking shelter.

The women and children - mother, grandmother and three little girls - came out waving a white flag and then, he said, an Israeli soldier came out of the tank and opened fire on the terrified procession.

Samar's two sisters, aged seven and two, were shot dead. The grandmother was hit in the arm and in the side, but has survived. "

if this isn't a war crime then what is...?

Edited by mystic fred - January 23 2009 at 02:18

Prog Archives Tour Van

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Points: 16130

Posted: January 23 2009 at 04:44

^^^ It now needs to be proven that the IDF committed these crimes. That will be tricky. The word of Palestinian eye witnesses is not going to hold much water.

If the situation were reversed, and an allegation had been made against Hamas fighters, it would be assumed, without discussion, in most quarters, that the Israeli testimony was true.

The IDF know this, and this is a green light to get away with cold blooded murder. If they did it

No Israeli minister, or high ranking military official is ever going to be standing trial for war crimes. I can guarantee that.

mystic fred View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 07:22

perhaps the Soldiers were " only following orders...."

Prog Archives Tour Van

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Joined: January 09 2008
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Posted: January 23 2009 at 08:19

mystic fred wrote:

well here's the report in full - i trust the BBC news more than any newspaper or forign news source, their world service is legendary, they can only rely on actual eye witnesses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7843307.stm

quote: "

Samar had been shot in the back at close range. The bullet damaged her spine, and she is unlikely to walk again.

At her bedside, her uncle Hassan told us the family had been ordered out of their home by Israeli soldiers who were shelling the neighbourhood.

A tank had parked in front of the house, where around 30 people were taking shelter.

Samar's two sisters, aged seven and two, were shot dead. The grandmother was hit in the arm and in the side, but has survived. "

if this isn't a war crime then what is...?

"The Israelis say is evidence that on many occasions when civilians were killed their troops had been responding to incoming fire."

Assuming you believe this source, it would be fair to say that it seems the Israeli soldiers had a reason to be firing weapons into those neighborhoods. This also points to the possibility I mentioned before that these civilians are being used by Hamas as human shields.

And like I've said before, the Palestinians elected Hamas to lead their country. They can't honestly think that they can keep showering their neighbors with violence and rockets and not expect any consequences for it.

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 08:21

mystic fred wrote:

perhaps the Soldiers were " only following orders...."

For a second there, I thought you were referring to Israeli soldiers.

That sounds more like something Hamas would do. If you want to believe that a modern "civilized" society slaughters innocent civilians intentionally, then I have to wonder what you're thinking over there. Confused

Edited by birdwithteeth11 - January 23 2009 at 08:21

IVNORD

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 08:24

Blacksword wrote:

^^^ It now needs to be proven that the IDF committed these crimes. That will be tricky. The word of Palestinian eye witnesses is not going to hold much water.

If the situation were reversed, and an allegation had been made against Hamas fighters, it would be assumed, without discussion, in most quarters, that the Israeli testimony was true.

The IDF know this, and this is a green light to get away with cold blooded murder. If they did it Nice disclaimer.

Blacksword wrote:

^^^
No Israeli minister, or high ranking military official is ever going to be standing trial for war crimes. I can guarantee that.

How about the Sabra and Shatila affair? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila

Specifically, "The Israeli government established the Kahan Commission to investigate, and it subsequently found Israel indirectly responsible for the event.... Ariel Sharon was found to bear personal responsibility..."

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 11:19

IVNORD wrote:

Blacksword wrote:

^^^ It now needs to be proven that the IDF committed these crimes. That will be tricky. The word of Palestinian eye witnesses is not going to hold much water. If the situation were reversed, and an allegation had been made against Hamas fighters, it would be assumed, without discussion, in most quarters, that the Israeli testimony was true. The IDF know this, and this is a green light to get away with cold blooded murder. If they did it Nice disclaimer.

Blacksword wrote:

^^^ No Israeli minister, or high ranking military official is ever going to be standing trial for war crimes. I can guarantee that.

How about the Sabra and Shatila affair? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila

True, but thats different to standing trial for war crimes. As it was an internal investigation there was very little consequence for Sharon. Indeed, he went on to be prime minister, so it all worked out quite nicely for him.

As I understand it, a Belgian prosecutor attempted to bring Sharon to the dock for war crimes, and this fell flat on it's face.

Do we know what happened to the Christian militias who actually carried out the massacres, while the Israelis stood by?

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 12:00

I would say something clever but at this point I'm just enjoying seeing the quote pyramids go up.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Henry Plainview View Drop Down

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Posted: January 23 2009 at 12:56

Slartibartfast wrote:

I would say something clever but at this point I'm just enjoying seeing the quote pyramids go up.

I know, it's like you people have never posted on a forum before!

if you own a sodastream i hate you

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