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Topic ClosedIsrael/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

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Padraic View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Why do I get the feeling the guy is getting taunted now to see if he rears his head here again? Tongue


I don't know who you're talking about.

Let's get back on topic, please, thank you folks.  Stern Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Why do I get the feeling the guy is getting taunted now to see if he rears his head here again? Tongue


that would make us as petty and unsufferable as that twit was LOL....  none of us  is that classless to descend to his level.


Edited by micky - January 19 2009 at 15:45
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 15:45
Not to be a young Errol Flynn or anything.
I've run out of pearls, I'll go make that tea...

Edited by Slartibartfast - January 19 2009 at 15:52
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 15:59
Big smile

...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 16:01
Ok.

Can we get back on topic please and be respectful?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 16:05
 ^ I doubt it


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 18:00
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Why do I get the feeling the guy is getting taunted now to see if he rears his head here again? Tongue
 
Something like that i think too, that Winterlight was pretty active in the Metallica inclusion BTW Tongue




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 18:26
Welp, the only thing that can save this thread now is....

CARE. BEAR. STARE!!!!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 19:31
I see Hamas are breaking the ceasefire already....and Iranians are Arabs. Persia is an arab country after it was invaded by Arabs aeons ago. So at least get your facts right if you want to try and be clever.

Edited by visitor2035 - January 19 2009 at 19:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 20:27
Thankfully , there is the music Big smile , that amazing vibe that unites us all , providing that healthy glow to visualize things with a gentle "light" and to infuse humor, respect (yes Antoine would be proud), modesty and just plain old sound judgment. At this point, I wish to applaud the classy consensus displayed by my fellow prog colleagues. Micky, you as usual , do not have your tongue in your pocket LOL 
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 22:09
Actually, the thread was more interesting when the departed guy was here doing his arrogant posts...  He actually made some good points...
 
Abandon
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 22:24
I sense the world falling down around my ears....

Oh wait, that might be this thread.Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 23:29
Originally posted by visitor2035 visitor2035 wrote:

I see Hamas are breaking the ceasefire already....and Iranians are Arabs. Persia is an arab country after it was invaded by Arabs aeons ago. So at least get your facts right if you want to try and be clever.
 
No ! you are wrong !  The people who live in Iran are Persians and not Arabs. They changed their religion about 1200 years ago but not their nationality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 23:43
Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

Originally posted by visitor2035 visitor2035 wrote:

I see Hamas are breaking the ceasefire already....and Iranians are Arabs. Persia is an arab country after it was invaded by Arabs aeons ago. So at least get your facts right if you want to try and be clever.

 

No ! you are wrong !  The people who live in Iran are Persians and not Arabs. They changed their religion about 1200 years ago but not their nationality.



Thank you Omri, as mentioned before, most friends I have had that were from Iran referred to themselves as Persians, and I don't think they were 'trying to be clever'.

Edited by Easy Money - January 19 2009 at 23:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 23:44
Originally posted by visitor2035 visitor2035 wrote:

I see Hamas are breaking the ceasefire already....and Iranians are Arabs. Persia is an arab country after it was invaded by Arabs aeons ago. So at least get your facts right if you want to try and be clever.
 
LOL Ha! You are still wrong, still not being clever, and still offering no proof of your silly statements. It is very simple for any schoolboy to Google such a subject.
 
Try this site on Iran, from the CIA, for starters:
 
 
Can't be bothered? Too much to read? Here is a relevant excerpt:
 
 
Ethnic groups:
Definition Field Listing
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%
Religions:
Definition Field Listing
Muslim 98% (Shia 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i) 2%
Languages:
Definition Field Listing
Persian and Persian dialects 58%, Turkic and Turkic dialects 26%, Kurdish 9%, Luri 2%, Balochi 1%, Arabic 1%, Turkish 1%, other 2%
*************************************************************************************************************
This is from the BBC:
 
Persia, as Iran was known before 1935, was one of the greatest empires of the ancient world, and the country has long maintained a distinct cultural identity within the Islamic world by retaining its own language and adhering to the Shia interpretation of Islam.
 
*******************************************************************************************
 
Here's an article on Iran from Encyclopedia.com:
 
 
and a relevant excerpt:
 
People

Iran's central position has made it a crossroads of migration; the population is not homogeneous, although it has a Persian core that includes over half of the people. Azerbaijanis constitute almost a quarter of the population. The migrant ethnic groups of the mountains and highlands, including the Kurds , Lurs, Qashqai, and Bakhtiari, are of the least mixed descent of the ancient inhabitants. In the northern provinces, Turkic and Tatar influences are evident; Arab strains predominate in the southeast. Iran has a large rural population, found mainly in agrarian villages, although there are nomadic and seminomadic pastoralists throughout the country.

Islam entered the country in the 7th cent. AD and is now the official religion; about 90% of Iranians are Muslims of the Shiite sect. The remainder, mostly Kurds and Arabs, are Sunnis. Colonies of Zoroastrians (see Zoroastrianism ) remain at Yazd, Kerman, and other large towns. In addition to Armenian and Assyrian Christian sects, there are Jews, Protestants, and Roman Catholics. Attempts have been made to suppress Babism and its successor, Baha'i , whose adherents constitute about 1% of Iran's population. Other religious movements, such as Mithraism (see under Mithra ) and Manichaeism , originated in Iran.

The principal language of the country is Persian (Farsi), which is written with the Arabic alphabet and spoken by about 60% of the people. Other groups speak Turkic dialects (25%), Kurdish, (10%), and Turkish, Armenian, and Arabic. Among the educated classes, English and French are spoken.
 
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
Wikipedia has this:
 

Iran is a diverse country consisting of people of many religions and ethnic backgrounds cemented by the Persian culture. 70% of present-day Iranians are Iranic peoples, corresponding to the anthropological term of Irano-Afghan, and are native speakers of Iranian branches of the Indo-European languages. The majority of the population speaks the official Persian language, and other Iranian languages or dialects. In addition Arabic is spoken in Southwestern Iran, and Turkic dialects, (i.e. Azeri, etc) are spoken in different areas in Iran. The main ethnic groups are Persians (51%), Azeris (24%), Gilaki and Mazandarani (8%), Kurds (7%), Arabs (3%), Baluchi (2%), Lurs (2%), Turkmens (2%), Laks, Qashqai, Armenians, Persian Jews, Georgians, Assyrians, Circassians, Tats, Mandaeans, Gypsies, Brahuis, Hazara, Kazakhs and others (1%).[28]

In 632 raiders from the Arab peninsula began attacking the Sassanid Empire. Iran was defeated in the Battle of al-Qâdisiyah, paving way for the Islamic conquest of Persia.

During Parthian, and later Sassanid era, trade on the Silk Road was a significant factor in the development of the great civilizations of China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, Indian subcontinent, and Rome, and helped to lay the foundations for the modern world. Parthian remains display classically Greek influences in some instances and retain their oriental mode in others, a clear expression of the cultural diversity that characterized Parthian art and life.[47] The Parthians were innovators of many architecture designs such as that of Ctesiphon, which later influenced European Romanesque architecture.[48][49] Under the Sassanids, Iran expanded relations with China. Arts, music, and architecture greatly flourished, and centers such as the School of Nisibis and Academy of Gundishapur became world renowned centers of science and scholarship.

Middle Ages (652–1501)

 
Map of Iranian Dynasties c. 1000

After the Islamic conquest of Persia, Iran was annexed into the Arab Umayyad Caliphate. But the Islamization of Iran was to yield deep transformations within the cultural, scientific, and political structure of Iran's society: The blossoming of Persian literature, philosophy, medicine and art became major elements of the newly forming Muslim civilization, culturally, politically, and religiously. The Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization caused the Islamic Golden Age.[50]

Abu Moslem, an Iranian general, expelled the Umayyads from Damascus and helped the Abbasid caliphs to conquer Baghdad. The Abbasid caliphs frequently chose their "wazirs" (viziers) among Iranians, and Iranian governors acquired a certain amount of local autonomy. Thus in 822, the governor of Khorasan, Tahir, proclaimed his independence and founded a new Persian dynasty of Tahirids. And by the Samanid era, Iran's efforts to regain its independence had been well solidified.[51]

 

Attempts of Arabization thus never succeeded in Iran, and movements such as the Shuubiyah became catalysts for Iranians to regain their independence in their relations with the Arab invaders. The cultural revival of the post-Abbasid period led to a resurfacing of Iranian national identity. The resulting cultural movement reached its peak during the 9th and 10th centuries. The most notable effect of the movement was the continuation of the Persian language, the language of the Persians and the official language of Iran to the present day. Ferdowsi, Iran's greatest epic poet, is regarded today as the most important figure in maintaining the Persian language. After an interval of silence Iran re-emerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam. Iranian philosophy after the Islamic conquest, is characterized by different interactions with the Old Iranian philosophy, the Greek philosophy and with the development of Islamic philosophy. The Illumination School and the Transcendent Philosophy are regarded as two of the main philosophical traditions of that era in Persia. The movement continued well into the 11th century, when Mahmud-a Ghaznavi founded a vast empire, with its capital at Isfahan and Ghazna. Their successors, the Seljuks, asserted their domination from the Mediterranean Sea to Central Asia. As with their predecessors, the divan of the empire was in the hands of Iranian viziers, who founded the Nizamiyya. During this period, hundreds of scholars and scientists vastly contributed to technology, science and medicine, later influencing the rise of European science during the Renaissance.[52]

In 1218, the eastern Khwarazmid provinces of Transoxiana and Khorasan suffered a devastating invasion by Genghis Khan. During this period more than half of Iran's population was killed,[53] turning the streets of Persian cities such as Neishabur into "rivers of blood", as the severed heads of men, women, and children were "neatly stacked into carefully constructed pyramids around which the carcasses of the city's dogs and cats were placed".[54] Between 1220 and 1260, the total population of Iran had dropped from 2,500,000 to 250,000 as a result of mass extermination and famine.[55] In a letter to King Louis IX of France, Holaku, one of the Genghis Khan's grandsons, alone took responsibility for 200,000 deaths in his raids of Iran and the Caliphate.[56] He was followed by yet another conqueror, Tamerlane, who established his capital in Samarkand.[57] The waves of devastation prevented many cities such as Neishabur from reaching their pre-invasion population levels until the 20th century, eight centuries later.[58] But both Hulagu, Tamerlane, and their successors soon came to adopt the ways and customs of that which they had conquered, choosing to surround themselves with a culture that was distinctively Persian.[59]

 
 
###########################################################################################
 
It goes on and on -- I have found no sites which support your foolish claim that Iran is an "Arab" country. Yes, Arabic peoples invaded and conquered Iran (in the 7th century -- not "aeons" ago, as you said -- but the people and culture did not thereby cease to be Persian, any more than Britain's rule of India turned the people there into ethnic Britons, or the United States' conquest of the native American peoples turned them into Europeans.  In any case, Arabic rule of Persia/Iran was relatively brief (about a century), and Persian rule was restored, and has remained ever since. (The Persian people and culture never went away.)
 
Are you perhaps assuming that "Arabic" and "Islamic" mean the same thing? I assure you they do not.
 
 
 
I suggest that in the future you do a little reading on a subject (if you can manage that), before you trumpet your uninformed assumptions, and thus reveal your ignorance to the world.

 

 
Stern Smile BTW, on the subject of being clever, it's "try to be clever," not "try and be clever."  (I don't need to "try," either -- I have university degrees which say "high distinction," proving that I am, in fact, clever! Tongue How many "History of Islam" university courses have you done? None, I'll bet. I did very well in that course, too. Approve)
 
 
Now, here comes the part where you realize that you are severely out of your depth in this subject and thread, and graciously admit that you were wrong -- just like a real grownup would do....Smile


Edited by Peter - January 20 2009 at 01:21
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2009 at 23:54
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

And at least in USA most of the public did support that war at the time (it can be easily checked by the population surveys made at that time) and not only western oil companies.

True.  However, let's think not just about the facts but their significance.  First, it is important to note that while many supported the war, a substantial number were against it.  It is easy to understand why so many in the US supported the war: very effective government propaganda that made the (illegitimate) association between Hussein and the 9/11 terrorist attack.  Moreover, there was a widespread campaign of fearmongering in the States to rally support for the war.  These sort of techniques would have been unnecessary if the population had a natural inclination to war.  In fact, now the majority believe that the war was a mistake; how to correct the mistake remains, of course, a matter of controversy.


It is quite usual to blame oil industry in all that's bad in the world but it's not that often true...

In a sense, you're right.  The oil industry, like other corporate entities, often pursues objectives detrimental to some population, whether domestic or foreign (usually both).  However, governments could prohibit certain kinds of behavior in the business world--impose restrictions, etc.  But then the function of government, to protect the interests of wealth and power, would become obsolete.

 
...most of the money Israel gets from the US is for purchasing weapon only from American companies...

True.  But it's important to realize that's not how it's sold to the US public: it's all under the umbrella of general aid.  But, to go beyond Israel for a moment, if you want to check on which states have the worst human rights abuse records, then simply find those that receive the most aid from Washington.  The correlation is strongly positive.  Not surprisingly, Israel receives, I believe, the largest sum.


I think that blaming the supportiIsrael gets as the main reason for the hate that some muslims feel against US (and actualy the whole western culture)  is quite shalow and misses the point.

It's not shallow in so far that it is true.  However, you're quite right to say that it's not the whole truth.  Obviously, there are many other factors in play.


The fact that the US and other west european countries like the UK held most of arab lands, treated them as stupid natives with scorn and patronising and still do (remember Bush declaration of bringing democracy to Iraq ?) is a much better explanation IMO (and for sure is not the only one).

Of course, this too is correct.  Like I said above, there are many factors that contribute to this situation.

 
Accusing Washington to be the only one who supported brutal dictators is another fault. Just remember the support the USSR gave Kambodia for example. The truth is both sides during the cold war supported anyone who was on their side no matter how wrong was he treating his own people. More than that, most of terror groups were trained in the USSR at the 70's so it's fair to say both sides supported evil all around the world.
However I don't think the American support to Israel falls in the same category. In Israel there are 2 ethnical groups on the same land and not a dictator that prevent human rights from the citizens.
More than that you can check Amnesty's human rights rating and find out Israel is not far away from most western countrys and much better than their neighbors (well Scandinavian countrys are higher but not only from Israel but the US as well).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2009 at 00:04
Well Peter, that guy made you mad !
 
Guessing he is an Israeli his lack in english should not be the matter here (and you proven him wrong by facts at the subject).
Another thing, I have a degree but never took any course in "hystory of the Islam" . Does that mean I'm not clever ? Or in a better way, is anyone who has a degree,  clever ? Personally I know quite a few that are one of the two but not both.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2009 at 00:30
Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

Well Peter, that guy made you mad !
 
Guessing he is an Israeli his lack in english should not be the matter here (and you proven him wrong by facts at the subject).
Another thing, I have a degree but never took any course in "hystory of the Islam" . Does that mean I'm not clever ? Or in a better way, is anyone who has a degree,  clever ? Personally I know quite a few that are one of the two but not both.
 
SmileOf course I'd never say that, omri -- you don't even need to have gone to school to be clever, or intelligent. A tribal hunter could be fully as clever as anyone.
 
What I am saying, though, is that my success and well above-average grades in university offer pretty darned convincing evidence of my cleverness.
 
Clever does not mean wise, either, as intelligence and wisdom are not synonymous. Intelligence (or cleverness) is mental potential which is there from the start -- wisdom is only acquired over time, and via experience (if at all). One could be intelligent enough to believe that smoking is harmful, for example, but lack the wisdom to not start.
 
I'm not really angry, BTW -- just frustrated (and even amused) to be publicly challenged on such a widely-known and easily-proven fact.
 
The whole "clever" thing was teasing, I'll admit, but that person had implied that I was not clever. I simply know otherwise. Wink
 
 


Edited by Peter - January 20 2009 at 01:23
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2009 at 00:47
Peter, If you know you are clever than a stranger's claim else should not offend you that much.
I don't think you ment it but the example of smoking hit right on target !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2009 at 01:03
Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

Peter, If you know you are clever than a stranger's claim else should not offend you that much.
I don't think you ment it but the example of smoking hit right on target !
Such a restrained response would seem to dwell within the realm of wisdom, though -- not cleverness. I didn't claim to suffer from a surfeit of that rare commodity! Wink
 
Again, omri, I wasn't really offended or mad. I actually had FUN  here tonight -- those who know me better here will understand that. Smile (Though it was a little unsporting of me, I'll admit -- sort of the intellectual equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.)
 
And that's me OUT of this minefield of a thread -- for good, I hope! Thanks! Wink


Edited by Peter - January 20 2009 at 01:20
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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