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Queen By-Tor View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:02
okay, quickly and before I read the rest of your post, you're saying that people who have no idea how to write a good review should be able to have the same weighting as someone who spends countless hours (338 reviews at 30 minutes to 1 hour per review aint easy) listening to music and writing to improve his technique?

Hate to sound pretentious, but why should Joe Blow's poorly written 1-star review of an album be worth more than my well thought, well written, worth-while semi-essay 4-star review of an album? Answer me that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:03
Your example is a poor one. Beardfish also won 5th place in the top albums for this year, and if you'd heard it you'd know that it was worth the rating. I gave it a 4 - oh good god no!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:06
But you're right. The best thing that we can do is eliminate this problem. Let's go the way of the other websites and only let collaborators write for the site - if you want to write a review then please submit your resume and review, our newly appointed editors will read through and make their judgments. If you're lucky then your review should be online by the beginning of February.


That's much better now, isnt it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:11
A well-written review is a far more important review then an assigned number with no written explanation as to how that rating was derived.  Non-collaborator reviews with words are also given more weighting than reviews without words; first, because there is some substance backing up the number rating, and second, it hopefully encourages people to write reviews instead of just clicking a number with no substance to back it up. 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:12
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

But you're right. The best thing that we can do is eliminate this problem. Let's go the way of the other websites and only let collaborators write for the site - if you want to write a review then please submit your resume and review, our newly appointed editors will read through and make their judgments. If you're lucky then your review should be online by the beginning of February.


That's much better now, isnt it?
 
ClapClap
 
Right on Mike, this is one of the most democratic sites you will find, sometimes so democratic that our impassioned staff are at each other's throats in the pursuit of making it better.  According to me. 
 
Meanwhile, we have the same old whiner argument rolled out again by a guy who's posted here.....how many times??
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:20
5 stars Six musicians, one exquisite album

Formed and conceived as a ''progressive'' side-project by Parallel or 90 Degrees front man Andy Tillison, The Tangent eventually took on a life of it's own and became a full blown band. Good thing too, because if they'd stuck to a one album project we would never have received this effort from the band. Not As Good As The Book represents a very personal record for the lead singer/keyboardist, with the entire album focusing on events in his life or his reactions to the modern world. As such the album has a very sarcastic feel to it at points, but a very emotional and attached feel at others. However, even with this mix of messages the album never gets lost. Whether he be commenting on warfare and media reactions or telling the story of himself and a friend trying to get into a club in Soho the album always manages to keep a familiar feel, and the songs segue perfectly from one to the next, never jaunting the audience, but bringing them along for the ride.

Though not a concept record in of itself, the album is tied together in the form of a book. That's right, for Not As Good As The Book Andy actually published a near 100-page novel to go along with it, harking back to the days when albums weren't simply groups of songs to be downloaded from iTunes, but an experience which one could actually sit down and enjoy the entire way through. It would be redundant to actually make comments on the book itself since it has nothing to do with the actual performances on the record, but it certainly does tie all the songs together. Not to mention that old and young proggers alike should be able to get plenty of kicks from all the prog references in the book itself. Tillison may not be the greatest novelist to have ever lived, but he certainly knows how to entertain.

The music itself on the album is very reminiscent of progressive records of old, while maintaining a modern sound. The opening synth riff right off the top of A Crisis In Midlife gives that away immediately. The album is rather keyboard heavy, but what prog head is going to turn that down, really? The keys always press the album along in a satisfactory manner, and this is likely because (as he's said before) Tillison really builds the songs from the ground up. Start with the keyboards and start to layer everything on top of it. Thus, everything feels like it's in the right place at the right time, long songs like The Ethernet manage to express an idea without becoming redundant and short rockers like the heavy and cynical instrumental Celebrity Puree and Bat Out Of Basildon come off as excellent music instead of a hard rock song out of place on an otherwise very progressive record. Of course all the other instruments are there when you need them. The heavy guitars, the powerful sax and the graceful flute all appear exactly when you'd want them to.

The two disc set is split heavily between discs, and one could even go so far as to call them separate albums. They maintain feel and consistency enough to be able to let them run together without having the album feel long to listen to, but they really are separate entities, as suggested by Tillison's naming of them. The first disc [A Crisis In Midlife] is full of the shorter songs. There's a kind of light feel to these songs thanks to pieces like the somewhat humorous Lost In London 25 Years Later (in which Andy and friend Ian find themselves face to face with a Soho pimp), with its calm progression leading up to outright heavy parts, and the formally mentioned Bat Out Of Basildon which is fairly uplifting thanks to lines like ''He's only as old as his helmet, and he only got it last week''.

The second disc is where prog heads will likely turn, these are the 'epics'. This disc holds a mere two songs, and two wonderful songs they are. They heavy, brooding, and socially aware Four Egos, One War makes wonderful use of everything The Tangent is good at, its good when it's quiet and when it's loud it's spine chilling. It's hard to not get worked up listening to the lyrics of the song too (I'd quote them, but there's far to many good lines to make reference to), it really makes you want to take to the streets with 'Stop the war!' signs. At the shrill scream of ''Throwing metal at the sky!'' it's hard not to feel a chill down your spine (no wonder they chose that line as the title of the second disc). The second track The Full Gamut is a hugely personal song for Tillison, reflecting on the end of his long marriage between the time of this album and the band's previous. The emotion comes across very well in the song and Andy gets a similar effect in this song when he starts into the ''This is not a rehearsal'' lines of the song. Surprisingly heavy for a song of its nature, this one does not let go oft he energy started on the first track.

Honestly, either one of these discs packaged on their own would have been great, putting them together only brings the album to another level.

As for the topic of the album, it's not aimed at the norm. Yes, it covers a large area (the size of New York...?), but it's mostly for the people Tillison's age. A Crisis In Midlife indeed, and a lot of the older audience of prog heads should appreciate that quite a bit with a lot of songs being aimed at the majority market (16-30 year olds). However, if you're young are you going to miss the point of the album? Not likely. Sure, we may not be able to relate to the album in completely, but it does give a strange insight into a different generation, and that's something not a lot of artists are able to capture. Besides, now I find myself looking forward to that 'crisis' in midlife so I can put on this album and say to myself ''ah, that's what he meant!''. Besides, since the music on this album is just so enjoyable it's easy to overlook not being the target audience for once. Kind of refreshing actually.

It may only be halfway through the year, but I don't think it's premature to say that this is a must have album. It takes a bit for this album to grow on you, but after three or four spaced out listens you might find yourself coming back to it every single day needing more. 5 Soho Jazz clubs out of 5! It doesn't get much better than this. It's going to be very, very hard to top this album for my album of the year. 


2 stars Not as good as previous works.... I am one of the few fans of this group who has been disappointed by this album? I just had few listens but it doesn 't give me any thrill and all the songs appear very proggy but with no special feeling generation... Sorry to say, but the atmospheres which made A Place in The Queue a number one, have disappeared...







Uncle Spooky, should these two reviews have the same weighting - really?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:25
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

okay, quickly and before I read the rest of your post, you're saying that people who have no idea how to write a good review should be able to have the same weighting as someone who spends countless hours (338 reviews at 30 minutes to 1 hour per review aint easy) listening to music and writing to improve his technique?


Absolutely.  In a democracy everybody's vote is worth the same. 

Quote Hate to sound pretentious, but why should Joe Blow's poorly written 1-star review of an album be worth more than my well thought, well written, worth-while semi-essay 4-star review of an album? Answer me that.


Because somebody's rating has nothing to do with their ability to write, or inclination to do so.  That doesn't make they vote worth any less.

I didn't realise this was a website for aspiring writers to hone their craft.  I thought it was a place for lovers of Progressive music?

Mark
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:27
Maybe we should just eliminate the reviews all together and have only ratings. Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:29
There are already two websites for that: Rate Your Music, and www.progfreak.com.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:29
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Your example is a poor one. Beardfish also won 5th place in the top albums for this year, and if you'd heard it you'd know that it was worth the rating. I gave it a 4 - oh good god no!!


Oh please, that's insulting.  I own the Beardfish albums, Sane Day, Sleeping in Traffic, Pt1 and Sleeping, Pt2.

Anyway, that was the very first example I picked and it amply demonstrated the problem of assigning weighting to collaborators.

Mark








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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:31
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

A well-written review is a far more important review then an assigned number with no written explanation as to how that rating was derived.  Non-collaborator reviews with words are also given more weighting than reviews without words; first, because there is some substance backing up the number rating, and second, it hopefully encourages people to write reviews instead of just clicking a number with no substance to back it up. 


Writing well has absolutely nothing to do with understanding the subject you are writing about.  I could cobble together a reasonable article about how to make a cake but that doesn't make me an expert.

Mark

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:31
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

There are already two websites for that: Rate Your Music, and www.progfreak.com.

I was about to mention that site. LOL
Mr. ProgFreak would very much like you to drop by and rate like crazy. Big smile


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 05 2009 at 12:33
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:32
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

 
Meanwhile, we have the same old whiner argument rolled out again by a guy who's posted here.....how many times??


Again with the insults.  And again from the collaborators...

Mark
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:34
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

5 stars Six musicians, one exquisite album

2 stars Not as good as previous works.... I am one of the few fans of this group who has been disappointed by this album? I just had few listens but it doesn 't give me any thrill and all the songs appear very proggy but with no special feeling generation... Sorry to say, but the atmospheres which made A Place in The Queue a number one, have disappeared..


Uncle Spooky, should these two reviews have the same weighting - really?

[/QUOTE]

Yes, indeed.  Who's to say that the expressive and effusive writer of the 5 star review isn't blinded by his love for the band and that the less able to express himself 2 star rater hasn't seen through all the hype and nailed the rating?

Get enough votes and things will shake out.  Weight the votes and you'll never get the accurate picture.

Mark
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:35
Originally posted by Uncle Spooky Uncle Spooky wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

A well-written review is a far more important review then an assigned number with no written explanation as to how that rating was derived.  Non-collaborator reviews with words are also given more weighting than reviews without words; first, because there is some substance backing up the number rating, and second, it hopefully encourages people to write reviews instead of just clicking a number with no substance to back it up. 


Writing well has absolutely nothing to do with understanding the subject you are writing about.  I could cobble together a reasonable article about how to make a cake but that doesn't make me an expert.

Mark

 
But it does show what thought and effort was put into the number that was assigned.  A five-star review that describes the excellence of the album as it brings on memories of Close to the Edge is going to mean a lot more to me than a five-star review that describes the excellence of the album because it brings on memories of Fantomas' Delirium Corda.  The first review tells me the reader that I will  be interested; the second review tells me the reader that I will not be interested.  A review with no words tells me nothing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:36
Originally posted by Uncle Spooky Uncle Spooky wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

5 stars Six musicians, one exquisite album

2 stars Not as good as previous works.... I am one of the few fans of this group who has been disappointed by this album? I just had few listens but it doesn 't give me any thrill and all the songs appear very proggy but with no special feeling generation... Sorry to say, but the atmospheres which made A Place in The Queue a number one, have disappeared..


Uncle Spooky, should these two reviews have the same weighting - really?



Yes, indeed.  Who's to say that the expressive and effusive writer of the 5 star review isn't blinded by his love for the band and that the less able to express himself 2 star rater hasn't seen through all the hype and nailed the rating?

Get enough votes and things will shake out.  Weight the votes and you'll never get the accurate picture.

Mark
[/QUOTE]

Oh god.

Please - in the first review I (the writer) clearly stated why the album deserved wuch a high rating while the other person just said "pass" without saying what is wrong with the album.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:37
Originally posted by Uncle Spooky Uncle Spooky wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

 
Meanwhile, we have the same old whiner argument rolled out again by a guy who's posted here.....how many times??


Again with the insults.  And again from the collaborators...

Mark
 
The forum and the archive are two seperate items - many people who regularily review and rate albums do not spend hours of the day posting on the forum.
 
Personally, I would like to hear more views of non-collaborators on this issue.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:40
By the way, I hope I haven't come across as insulting, if I have then you are just an empty headed animal food trough wiper...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by Uncle Spooky Uncle Spooky wrote:

OK pop pickers, let's take a look at a chart topper from 2008

Beardfish: Sleeping in Traffic Part 2

PA Rating: 4.39/5 from 43 ratings, 8 of which are collaborators and 3 were non-collabs with reviews, the rest are just ratings.

So, PA rating of 4.39/5
Basic average of 4.0/5

Or a 9% upswing due to weighting.

Remove collaborators entirely:  3.88/5

A 13% downswing from the PA rating due to removal of 8/43 ratings.

If we remove the extreme voting from non-collabs (just in case they're stuffing) the average drops to 3.56/5

Cheers,

Mark
I'm more interested in hearing how we can eliminate spurious ratings - frankly, without building up a database of voting trends for each reviewer against various genre-types I cannot see how this can be implemented. Simply eliminating all 1 and 5 star reviews like you demonstrated in your example is far from accurate and skews the results even more than by weighting the results in favour of collaborators who have demonstrated (by peer review) that their ratings are an accurate reflection of their opinion and not biased towards vote-rigging.
 
The algorithms used have undergone several changes and improvements since they were first included into the site and we are always open to methods for improving them. Unfortunately simple un-weighted algorithms proved to be non-viable in the past due to excessive vote-rigging by spurious voters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:52

BTW, this argument does come up about once every 3 or 4 months or so.  Here is a link to one of the more recent threads discussing this issue.  You will probably see that the arguments for and against in this thread pretty much parallel what was said in the previous thread.  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51697&PID=3000648#3000648

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