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Dean

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:33

I tried embedding this in the post, but it messes the page up too much, so please indulge me by following this link: http://downlode.org/Creative/Metal_Family_Tree/metal_family_tree.txt and look at the Metal Family tree.

This is obviously a simplified view of things, but it does show the direct antecedence between the various metal subgenres even of it misses out all the criss-crossing secondary and tertiary influences.

From that is is easy to see that they is no direct connection between Metalcore and Prog Metal, in the same way that there is no direct connection between Prog Rock and Punk Rock.

/edit - it also rather nicely shows the relationship between Power and Prog Metal in that they share a common root, but Power Metal lacks the obvious Prog Rock parent.

Edited by Dean - December 12 2008 at 19:36

What?

micky

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:21

wonder if the Lions go 0-16 this year...

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 19:10

HughesJB4 wrote:

So what you're saying is, Heavy Prog bands are all "hard rock" bands?

No, I'm saying that "Heavy Prog defines progressive rock music that draws as much influence from hard rock as it does from classic progressive rock ( http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=41 )

So even when not all are hard Rock bands, there's a strong connection, and if you disagree, well tell the Heavy Prog team to change their definition, because I just copied this definition from them.

There's probably thousands and thousands of people that have never heard 'prog' that like RIO/Avant.
Chances are, Univers Zero probably has fans from classical music that couldn't give a rats tail about Yes or Genesis, and you know it.

Yes and Genesis don't represent all Prog, but Avant is still Prog.

I'm sure that SOME people who listen Universe Zeo probably don't like Genesis and Yes; as many people who like Genesis and Yes probably won't like Universe Zero, but I'm sure almost 100% of fans of any of this groups knows about the existence of the others.

Did you even read what I said?
There is a connection between metalcore and metal, but there isn't a direct connection between metalcore and 'prog metal.

Pleaser!!!! SDo you say there's not a connection between Prog Metal and Metalcore, but there is a connection between Metalcore and Metal????????????????

Yes there is a connection, and that connection is called METAL, which is present in both Prog Metal and Metalcore.

In other words, there's a METAL component in both Metalcore and Prog Metal, so if you say there's no connection between them, I don't understand you.

And what does that have to do with mathrock? All I said was that I believe math rock is a misnomer, I didn't say anything about metalcore in terms of prog rock at all.

You brought Mathrock here, I wasn't, so you must know better.

And to put it more straight and more to do with what I said, there is a connection between PUNK and mathrock, but not really metal and math rock.

Honestly, I kow very little about Math Rock and even care less, so I won't discuss about it.

Yes, punk is a dirty word around Progarchives it seems, because apparently all punk bands are "3 chord bands that sound like The Ramones and The Sex Pistols and use the same song structures" and apparently if you've heard one punk band you're heard them all and they all suck. Because they fail to understand there is about 20 or so sub genres of punk, just like there is 20+ sub genres of prog.
But to full understand a genre like mathrock, you need to understand hardcore punk, and perhaps punk in general to see how the genre of mathrock came about.

That's your stereotype, I participated in a Punk thread and mentioned that Post punk, New Age, Alternative, etc all are linked to Punk in some degree like sub-genres, while SOME of the pseudo punk experts said there was no connection for example between Blondie and Punk.

Yes I believe pure Punk is something from the past and almost dead, but there are other genres that have Punk elements.

So if you want tro accuse someone, please research who said what before making generalizations,

And what if Punk is a bad word here for some of us?

We don't need to like Punk, I honestly dislike most Punk I heard and what?

And in order for me to be able to do my job on a Progressive Metal Team (since in particular Plankowner and I tend to take care more of the Tech/Extreme bands while The T is more into 'traditional' prog metal) I also have to have an understanding of punk in order not to be ignorant of various mathcore styled band.

Well, I don't hear Math or Punk because I don't like Math pr Punk, and to work in Symphonic and Neo Prog, I don't need any knowledge of Math or Punk.

Well I never Jazz Rock/Fusion as a prog genre, at least not before I came to PA.
I started listening to Jazz Rock/Fusion in about 2006 and I came to PA in 2007, and honestly to me Jazz Rock-Fusion was just exactly that: Jazz Rock-Fusion.

So you never heard about Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc-Ponty or Brand X for example?

You must never never visited any other Prog site as:

GEPR

Fusion

More explorative jazz-rock that took this simple form of music to a new level of innovation. Maybe a little jazzier than the space fusion, if you don't like jazz at all, you may want to avoid this category. Not a good enough description but it will do.

Bands

Mahavishnu Orchestra, Brand X, Bruford, Arti E Mestieri, etc. http://www.gepr.net/gepr_styles.html

Proggnosis

COUNTRY	GENRE-subgenre-style	ARTIST (#Listed) (click to view Artist page)
Multi-National	Fusion - Jazz-Fusion - General	Clarke-Di Meola-Ponty (1)
Multi-National	Fusion - Jazz-Fusion - General	Di Meola-Ponty-Clarke (1)
France	Fusion - Jazz-Fusion - General	Ponty, Jean-Luc (22)
Multi-National	Fusion - Jazz-Fusion - General	Ponty-Grappelli (1)

http://www.proggnosis.com/ProGGnosisDBSearch.asp

Progressive Ears

Brand X

Originally Phil Collins fusion side band, this evolved into a collective fusion-lite outfit. The earlier CDs are better.
Vinylroolz

http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?artistAlpha=B&pg=4

Or Progressor?

Genre: Jazz Fusion

http://www.progressor.net/articles/genres.html

Because all have Fusion as a Prog sub-genre, as a fact each and every Prog site that i know has Fusion as a prog sub-genre.

But hell, you know what? I like the music and I'm happy to see it here.

That's the difference betwen you and me, I like a lot of music besides Prog, but I don't want to see all music here, even if I like it, because this is not a general music site, this is a PROGRESSIVE ROCK site.

Just the same as Post Rock might not have much connection to classic prog either, but when we view it in a different light and in terms of how genres got to PA, it makes sense both Jazz Rock-Fusion and Post Rock are here.

But not all jazz Rock Fusion, just wrote a post in that thread last night.

Yes, but you make it sound like a bad thing When I think people are free to come to PA if they like prog metal and don't care for the classic prog band.

For God's sake, you write all this post and at the end you say you agree with what i say but you don't like how i said it?

But you read what you want to read and understand what you want to understand.

I said that you don't NEED to be a Prog fan to like Prog Metal, and despite there are a few cases that don't, I'm sure that even those Metalheads that hate Progtressive Rock or haven't heard about prog in their whole lives, will probably like prog metal bands, because the main component in Prog Metal is METAL.

People is free to come here even if they don't like Prog at all, the site needs visitors.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 19:16

Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:39

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=HughesJB4]

I'd comfortably say you can get into Jazz Rock/Fusion without having heard a single second of 'prog' (in the sense of what constitutes classic prog).

I know this will cause me a problem with the JRF team, but honestly I feel that Prog Metal has kept closer to Prog than JRF, with sadness I see some purely Jazz artists being added because they fuse some Rock in it without almost any Prog Relation.

I agree that Bitches Brew is a great step to Prog Fusion, but all Miles previous albums are reason enough not to add him. I don't see any Prog component in Daryl Stuermer for example.

Something that doesn't happen in Prog Metal.

You can quite comfortably get into many of the Heavy Prog bands without having heard 'prog'.
Go to a metal forum and you'll see many many Porcupine Tree fans there are and yet, don't care for classic prog at all.

Doesn't the word Heavy on the name of the genre makes at least a connection between Heavy Prog and Heavy Metal?

Most metal heads will also like Hard Rock.

So what you're saying is, Heavy Prog bands are all "hard rock" bands?

You can comfortably get into RIO/Avant prog without having heard a single second of 'prog.
I was a fan of Mr Bungle before I even knew this site existed, and never consciously thought of them as prog (although certainly understood it was more complex than run of the mill rock music.

I don't think so, RIO-Avant is so complex that most of the people would need a precviouus ecxperience in Prog or will normally be a Prog fan after entering to Avant Rio.

But the real question woyuld be if an Avant Garde music fan will ever get used to Rio-Avant, I don't think so, as I told before my mother is a concertist, after some effort I made a Prioghead ofher, every time I go to her house or she comes to mine, I see her watching Prog DVD's, but even when Avant Garde music is one of her weaknes (She's a fan of Schaeffer and Karlheinz Stockhausen), she can't stand Rio Avant.

A Metalhead can be a Prog Metal fan without ever having even heard the word Prog or even continue being one without ever listening a Prog band.

You can get into math rock (which btw, I still believe is a misnomer and is in many cases more correctly called mathcore, while what is called mathcore is more technically 'technical metalcore') and never have heard a 'prog' band in your life.

Many math rock ans came from the punk scene and couldn't care less about Yes, Genesis etc, although more so from the sub genre Post Hardcore than 'straight' punk.

Well, isn't there a connection between Metalcore and prog Metal?

Did you even read what I said?
There is a connection between metalcore and metal, but there isn't a direct connection between metalcore and 'prog metal.
And what does that have to do with mathrock? All I said was that I believe math rock is a misnomer, I didn't say anything about metalcore in terms of prog rock at all.
And to put it more straight and more to do with what I said, there is a connection between PUNK and mathrock, but not really metal and math rock.

Yes, punk is a dirty word around Progarchives it seems, because apparently all punk bands are "3 chord bands that sound like The Ramones and The Sex Pistols and use the same song structures" and apparently if you've heard one punk band you're heard them all and they all suck. Because they fail to understand there is about 20 or so sub genres of punk, just like there is 20+ sub genres of prog.
But to full understand a genre like mathrock, you need to understand hardcore punk, and perhaps punk in general to see how the genre of mathrock came about.
And in order for me to be able to do my job on a Progressive Metal Team (since in particular Plankowner and I tend to take care more of the Tech/Extreme bands while The T is more into 'traditional' prog metal) I also have to have an understanding of punk in order not to be ignorant of various mathcore styled band.

You can like Post Rock and not care one iota about classic prog.
Many Post Rock fans came from it from the punk angle (there isn't a great deal of musical connection of Post Rock to punk, but it's still there to some degree and certainly as music scene, Post Rock has somewhat of tendency to align themselves with punk to at least a fair extent).

Never seen Post Rock as a Prog genre, without offense for the genre, IMO it's a Punk sub product more than a Prog one.

Well I never Jazz Rock/Fusion as a prog genre, at least not before I came to PA.
I started listening to Jazz Rock/Fusion in about 2006 and I came to PA in 2007, and honestly to me Jazz Rock-Fusion was just exactly that: Jazz Rock-Fusion.
But hell, you know what? I like the music and I'm happy to see it here.
Just the same as Post Rock might not have much connection to classic prog either, but when we view it in a different light and in terms of how genres got to PA, it makes sense both Jazz Rock-Fusion and Post Rock are here.

Yes, that may be the case and is the case in many circumstances and yes, on many metal forum boards, you will come across fans of prog metal that couldn't care less about 'classic' prog.
Regardless, these people still have a strong appreciation for prog metal, but they may not ncessarily approach it directly from the 'prog' angle.

That's what I said....Isn't it?

Cheers

Yes, but you make it sound like a bad thing When I think people are free to come to PA if they like prog metal and don't care for the classic prog band.

crimson87

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:36

PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:

Modern metal is just a fad and soon the kiddies will see that and when they grow up they'll see how much better real prog is ;)

As much as I agree with you ,get ready for the bashing.

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:34

PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:

Modern metal is just a fad and soon the kiddies will see that and when they grow up they'll see how much better real prog is ;)

Makes perfect sense since modern metal is nearly a generation old.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

The T

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:44

Edit.

Damn I'm so bad to handle trolls...

Edited by The T - December 12 2008 at 15:49

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:38

Modern metal is just a fad and soon the kiddies will see that and when they grow up they'll see how much better real prog is ;)

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 14:00

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

A Metalhead can be a Prog Metal fan without ever having even heard the word Prog or even continue being one without ever listening a Prog band.

I guess that such people exist. Still, I'd think that the word "metalhead" is used for people who - regardless of whether they're familiar with genre labels - steer clear of anything that could be called prog. I guess this division exists in rock too, but in metal it's *very* evident ... some fans like prog, some don't, but there's almost no in between. People will either go for mainstream acts that will do everything "by the book", with no surprises ... or they'll gravitate towards experimental stuff. Interestingly, the latter often also listen to the mainstream acts to some extent, but not the other way round.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 12 2008 at 14:03

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 10:44

HughesJB4 wrote:

I'd comfortably say you can get into Jazz Rock/Fusion without having heard a single second of 'prog' (in the sense of what constitutes classic prog).

I agree that Bitches Brew is a great step to Prog Fusion, but all Miles previous albums are reason enough not to add him. I don't see any Prog component in Daryl Stuermer for example.

Something that doesn't happen in Prog Metal.

Doesn't the word Heavy on the name of the genre makes at least a connection between Heavy Prog and Heavy Metal?

Most metal heads will also like Hard Rock.

You can comfortably get into RIO/Avant prog without having heard a single second of 'prog.
I was a fan of Mr Bungle before I even knew this site existed, and never consciously thought of them as prog (although certainly understood it was more complex than run of the mill rock music.

I don't think so, RIO-Avant is so complex that most of the people would need a precviouus ecxperience in Prog or will normally be a Prog fan after entering to Avant Rio.

A Metalhead can be a Prog Metal fan without ever having even heard the word Prog or even continue being one without ever listening a Prog band.

Many math rock ans came from the punk scene and couldn't care less about Yes, Genesis etc, although more so from the sub genre Post Hardcore than 'straight' punk.

Well, isn't there a connection between Metalcore and prog Metal?

That's what I said....Isn't it?

Cheers

cacho wrote:

Something similar that happens with Floyd fans, not the ones from here, if not only Floyd.

That's something different Cacho, we're talking about genres or sub-genres and you come wioth Pink Floyd, a band that due to their specuial circumstances and extreme popularity, trascended Prog and was accepted by the general public.

In that case you could mention STYX or even Kansas that made the top POP charts with Dust in the Wind.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2008 at 10:50

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 09:58

Certainly, provincialism has little to do with progressive thinking.

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 07:55

HughesJB4 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

And did I mention that there are borderline cases in prog rock too? Wink

As I said, it would clear a lot of confusion if a majority of users on this website understood prog metal but that is not possible without first understanding metal and that, dear me, is a hard road unless you are a metalhead.

Good point Rogerthat, as a fact, I believe Prog Metal is the only sub-genre in which a fan doesn't need to be a Proghead to like and understand a band.

I believe that fans of Metal will like many Prog Metal bands even if they don't heard the word Progressive Rock before, in comparison with albums as Foxtrot, Close to the Edge or Thick as a Brick, in which you need to be a Proghead to really love them as we do.

On the other hand, many Progheads (I would dare to say the vast majority) may like any sub-genre except Prog Metal, because the metal elements are so obvious and preeminent, that the Prog component is hidden for us.

Understanding Metal is hard, I admit that ourside lets say Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden and AC/DC, I heard very little Metal, I don't care for growls of so extended solos, I'm not a metal man.

Iván

"Good point Rogerthat, as a fact, I believe Prog Metal is the only sub-genre in which a fan doesn't need to be a Proghead to like and understand a band".

I'd comfortably say you can get into Jazz Rock/Fusion without having heard a single second of 'prog' (in the sense of what constitutes classic prog).
You can quite comfortably get into many of the Heavy Prog bands without having heard 'prog'.
Go to a metal forum and you'll see many many Porcupine Tree fans there are and yet, don't care for classic prog at all.
You can comfortably get into RIO/Avant prog without having heard a single second of 'prog.
I was a fan of Mr Bungle before I even knew this site existed, and never consciously thought of them as prog (although certainly understood it was more complex than run of the mill rock music.
You can get into math rock (which btw, I still believe is a misnomer and is in many cases more correctly called mathcore, while what is called mathcore is more technically 'technical metalcore') and never have heard a 'prog' band in your life.
Many math rock fans came from the punk scene and couldn't care less about Yes, Genesis etc, although more so from the sub genre Post Hardcore than 'straight' punk.
You can like Post Rock and not care one iota about classic prog.
Many Post Rock fans came from it from the punk angle (there isn't a great deal of musical connection of Post Rock to punk, but it's still there to some degree and certainly as music scene, Post Rock has somewhat of tendency to align themselves with punk to at least a fair extent).

"I believe that fans of Metal will like many Prog Metal bands even if they don't heard the word Progressive Rock before, in comparison with albums as Foxtrot, Close to the Edge or Thick as a Brick, in which you need to be a Proghead to really love them as we do"

Yes, that may be the case and is the case in many circumstances and yes, on many metal forum boards, you will come across fans of prog metal that couldn't care less about 'classic' prog.
Regardless, these people still have a strong appreciation for prog metal, but they may not ncessarily approach it directly from the 'prog' angle.

Something similar that happens with Floyd fans, not the ones from here, if not only Floyd.

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 07:48

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

this is supposed to be a website for prog rock after all.

Not really. I think that the classic prog rock albums of the 70s are this website's primary focus, but I think that most of us are glad that it doesn't stop there. Smile

Oh I certainly see the rationale of including prog metal among other things here. Dream Theater was my first taste of any progressive music too, unless you count Santana's Supernatural album which is on this website. Tongue

But I am just talking about why a prog rock fan - as in one who does not listen to much metal - would find some of the inclusions here hard to understand. And I have also said before in this thread that not all the classic prog inclusions are non controversial either...it's just that metal is not a much-maligned genre for nothing! LOL

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 07:25

rogerthat wrote:

this is supposed to be a website for prog rock after all.

Not really. I think that the classic prog rock albums of the 70s are this website's primary focus, but I think that most of us are glad that it doesn't stop there. Smile

rogerthat

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 06:38

Rocktopus wrote:

Deathrabbit wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should get their head out of their ass and quit elevating stuff they like and demonizing stuff they don't.

Everyone draws the line somewhere. Even you progmetallers says no to suggested metalbands at times.

On the other side there's people wanting to include freejazz legends like Ornette Coleman, Albert Ayler, John Coltrane etc here. I actively listen to all of them, so not agreeing, is not about me being closeminded or any of that crap. Its ProgArchives your ultimate prog rock resource not Progressive Music Archives (where most progmetal would have an even tougher job at getting included).

Disagreeing that something is prog, is not demonizing.

Deathrabbit can speak for himself, but I don't think it was directed at you, rather at the "how can you listen to growls, not music" posts. You don't seem to be demonizing PM but you are looking at it from a prog fan's point of view rather than a metal fan's. Which, honestly, is not so objectionable at all because I guess this is supposed to be a website for prog rock after all. LOL

But like I said, it's a Pandora's Box. What about Miles Davis, what about Prog-related then...it goes on and on. LOL

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 06:13

Deathrabbit wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should get their head out of their ass and quit elevating stuff they like and demonizing stuff they don't.

Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 05:21

^ exactly ... this is what I meant by "live and let live" in another recent post. Thumbs Up

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 04:49

rogerthat wrote:

Deathrabbit wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should get their head out of their ass and quit elevating stuff they like and demonizing stuff they don't.

Ditto.

Well said!

Please, can we be just a happy family that enjoys Prog music together and let individuals decide which sub-genres they prefer and enjoy?

After all, isn't that the reason why we are here in the first place?

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 04:20

Deathrabbit wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should get their head out of their ass and quit elevating stuff they like and demonizing stuff they don't.

Failcore

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Posted: December 12 2008 at 04:07

Your forgetting the two most common fallacies of prog. All music that I like is Prog, and all music I dislike isn't. I think the logic goes something like this-- I like Prog; I like band X; band x is prog-- I dislike non-prog; I dislike band y; band y is not prog. The problem with these statements it that like Prog is not mutex with liking some non-prog. Neither is disliking non-Prog mutex to dislikin some prog. Even if one was brazen enough to make such assertions as, "I like only prog" or "I dislike only non-prog", I know of no mathematical or inductive way of proving such an assertion. The obvious brute force solution is to listen to the set of all music, but for empirical reasons that's quite impossible. I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should get their head out of their ass and quit elevating stuff they like and demonizing stuff they don't.

Edited by Deathrabbit - December 12 2008 at 04:08