The REAL problem with prog-metal: is not prog-rock

I know this thread's been around a while, but since I wasn't around when it started, I'll chime in now  Hope that's ok.

While T's post is definitely very insightful, I don't agree entirely with it.

First of all, I wouldn't differentiate between rock and metal by the use of riffs, because rock is also very riff based and a lot of prog rock as well. Speaking from a purely musical perspective, what really seperates metal from rock is the instrumentation and playing style.

As the great Zappa said, timbre rules, and this is a great example of it.

Now, moving on to DT, which are pretty much the poster-boys for prog metal, I would say the prog-rock influence is almost as strong, or even just as strong as the metal influence.  However, because their sound and playing style are greatly influenced by metal, this is sometimes not as obvious.

IMO this has a lot to do with the guitars.  They're heavily distorted, and double-tracked...just like any metal album.  This causes the guitars to be really loud and up front in the mix, at the expense of other instruments...most notably the keyboards.

So even when DT is displaying their prog influences, the guitars are so dominant that one still hears it sounding very "metal".  Awake is probably the best example of this. Imagine listening to, say, Erotomania, with the guitar played with less gain, single-tracked, and panned to the left, and the keyboard loud and present on the right? There's probably better examples, but that's the first that came to my mind.

Now of course DT has a strong metal element, and this reflects on a lot of their songs...These songs, the riff heavy ones, with a more traditional structures, I like to thinks of as the "guitar" songs.

But if you listen to what I think of as "keyboard" songs: Only A Matter Of Time, Learning To Live, Surrounded...more recently, Octavarium, I think the prog influence becomes very apparent and strong.

I don't think it's a coincidence that their guitar-dominant records are the least popular on this forum.

But anyway, that's DT. For every band it's gonna be different,  but as a whole I don't think prog metal should be considered a different genre. It's definitely linked to the past, and is still evolving.

To sum it up, it's complicated.

PROGMONSTER2008 wrote: Prog rock isn't supposed to be about breaking boundaries and experimenting imo. It's just that jazz rockers seemed to naturally seem to do this anyway. Their music was naturally clever, catchy and complex . As for prog metal it only tends to be complex or technical.

Listen to Dream Theater's Scenes from a Memory and then try saying that again.

Atavachron wrote:  ^ still need to hear that one, I started with Awake and I was disappointed

If you're not a metalhead, that's understandable. SFAM is amazing; it may take a while to grow on you because of its depth and length, but it really is a masterpiece. Check my review.

Anyone who actually likes Cookie monster vocals is totally brainwashed imo. It was ridiculous when it began maybe 25 years ago. Only rebellious types would have listened to it and started a trend which people follow today because it's the cool thng to do

PROGMONSTER2008 wrote: Anyone who actually likes Cookie monster vocals is totally brainwashed imo.

Heh, there's a lot of prog singers that would just about fit here as well. When I was getting into prog some eight years ago, the singers (Gabriel, Anderson, Lee, La Brie, Haslam, WIlson, Hammil, Fish, Nichols, Suhrkampf, you name them) were the biggest hurdle to overcome. I was really wondering where the bands got those people from, and had a theory that no one else wanted to sing for them because of the long instrumental passages 
I haven't really changed my mind about that, though with time I grew to appreciate the finer points of their vocals and to find the charm in their often silly mannerisms. But more than anything, prog is a 'weird vocals' music to me. That's not a bad thing really - it's a major part of the music's character.

^ There's nothing wrong with Ms Haslam, just with her voice  eh, it just annoys me. Yeah, hard rock vocals are the last thing I'd want to hear in a prog band.

On second thought, La Brie has no charming mannerisms, just annoying ones. He's best when he's staying out of 'emotional' extremes.

rogerthat wrote: Visitor13 wrote: On second thought, La Brie has no charming mannerisms, just annoying ones. He's best when he's staying out of 'emotional' extremes. Agree, but then I am no fan of Dream Theater nor La Brie.   I liked his vocals best on Space Dye Vest, it's also my favourite DT song, that says it all.

I don't like that song, but I agree that his singing there illustrates my point quite well. Anyway, Images and Words and the debut are the only DT albums I like, and both more due to their charming naivety and youthful enthusiasm than any purely musical qualities.

rogerthat wrote: I don't really agree with the notion that metal is just an extension of rock. It may have emerged from rock music but it has gone to become something very different. While both are riff based, in metal, whole songs and albums can be constructed around the riffs, which is more difficult to achieve in rock.

But there are plenty of rock songs that are entirely based on riffs.  Some of them classics even... The whole concept of riffs comes from the blues, really.

Another thing: metal is inherently guitar based and it is difficult to do away with that in prog metal. In contradistinction, much of the prog rock of the 70s was centred around keyboards.

That's true, that was pretty much what I was getting at...the guitar based nature of metal can work against the prog elements in the music.  But that doesn't mean the prog elements aren't there.

While on the surface modern metal is very different sonically from normal rock music, when you look under the hood, it's not all that different.  It's more of an exaggeration of certain elements that were already there.  That's the way I see it at least.




Edited by DatM - December 10 2008 at 19:01

PROGMONSTER2008 wrote: Anyone who actually likes Cookie monster vocals is totally brainwashed imo. It was ridiculous when it began maybe 25 years ago. Only rebellious types would have listened to it and started a trend which people follow today because it's the cool thng to do

I guess I am gonna listen to more prog metal milestones first and then come to a conclusion. But why do the fans get so pissed off when someone says metal is not prog for god's sake? Is it carved on stone???