How can metal be prog?

rushfan4 wrote: To my ears, 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song, and of course that has been around since the 1960's.  I

Hi Ivan - all a matter of taste - Scenes from a Memory (especially orchestrated in the Live DVD) blew my mind like only Yes or Genesis ever could. The latest  (and previous) Karmakanic album is, to me, a crossover between prog rock and prog Metal! It stunned me!!!!

To my ears, 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song, and of course that has been around since the 1960's.  I am also of the opinion that Relayer is the Yes metal album.  I know that others say that it is Yes' RIO/Avant album, but there are some guitar and keyboards riffs within Gates of Delirium that are as heavy and fast as many prog metal bands. 

slaver wrote: Hey Ivan - please listen to One hour by the concrete lake by Pain ........... I'm sure you'll like it or Octavarium by Dream Theater. They are purely harder forms of the old Genesis, Yes etc etc.... Again I'll advocate Karmakanic which is definately not Prog Rock - it's decidedly prog metal to me. Or has elements of both.

Hey Ivan - please listen to One hour by the concrete lake by Pain ........... I'm sure you'll like it or Octavarium by Dream Theater. They are purely harder forms of the old Genesis, Yes etc etc.... Again I'll advocate Karmakanic which is definately not Prog Rock - it's decidedly prog metal to me. Or has elements of both.

I purely love old Genesis, as of today Karmakanic, Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation. Am learning to like Opeth. One doesn't have to seperate Prog Metal from Prog Rock. They are Prog.

Rocktopus wrote:   Very convinient to hide behind: Non-PM collaborators don't understand this sub genre. Maybe the PM collaborators don't understand the main Progrock genre who's site they keep adding all these metalbands in? ... and that's why people who don't listen to this genre 90% of the time disagrees every now and then?

rogerthat wrote: To be fair to Rocktopus, Epica and Nightwish are not considered prog metal on metal-archives either, it's slotted under gothic/symphonic metal.   Kamelot neither but since I have not heard any of their albums, I won't judge Kamelot. This is bound to happen because the way a proghead looks at prog metal will be different from the way a metalhead looks at it. I presume Nightwish is here because of the symphonic elements - used it in its lay, loose sense, am mindful of the debates that go on here about the connotation of  "symphonic"  - in their music but we simply call it symphonic metal.  And as Ivan said, as long as non-PM collaborators don't fully understand this sub genre, it's going to be difficult to have any meaningful debate on which bands should be included in prog metal and which shouldn't.

Those are the fringes of prog metal ... they're all borderline cases. Nightwish were here long before I even joined (under my old Jedi name of Obi Wan Kenobi Special Collab Account). But if you take a closer look at the music of the bands which have been added you'll find some things which set them apart from other symphonic metal bands. A direct comparison of Evanescence and Epica show fundamental differences - Epica is much more orchestral than Evanescence, and much less mainstream. Rhapsody are often bashed as being completely cheesy and ridiculous, but if you examine the actual music you'll see that it is much more sophisticated than your typical power metal with symphonic/orchestral ornamentations.

Mr Proghead,  Symphony X - V: The New Mythology Suit is one of the few cases in which I fully understand we're talking about a Prog album, I even done one of my three Prog Metal reviews about it and gave 4 stars, something that can be explained when I read reviewers saying is a Symphonic "Metalish" album.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 10 2008 at 11:16

Hey Ivan - I agree with Mr Progfreak to a large extent. If anyone says that Symphony X or Dream Theater aren't prog enough then I really have a problem. They today are defining Prog music. Keep in mind that as of today I really like Karmakanic's music as well as Opeth's. Maybe you mean that it should be classed as Prog Rock - Prog Rock today is using elements of Prog metal in their music as well as visa versa. I've never liked or really understood the term "metal" Maybe when applied to Wasp, Motley Crue, Guns and Roses and the ilk I could accept it. In that case Metal is no more than extreme power pop.