How can metal be prog?

progmetalhead wrote: Rocktopus wrote: pompous, simple and vulgar   Out of genuine interest, would you care to enlighten us as to which bands in the database satisfy your criteria outlined above?

Whether I think progmetal bands are pompous and vulgar (is really beside the point, but here you go:

Symphony X, Rhapsody of Fire, Nightwish, Angra, Kamelot, Lacrimosa... I can't remember every single band I've felt sick after having checked out.

PM "specialists" are often stressing that this genre is so different, has a simpler set of rules and can't really be compared to real prog. I read that as very good reasons for not including most of the bands here.

^ I read the page again ... apart from the various insults and unsubstantiated complaints about stuff that "doesn't belong here", I found no greater context to add to the statements that I quoted.

Symphony X are a key band of prog metal. They belong here. It is written in stone. The same applies to Dream Theater.

Those statements cannot be challenged ... you're welcome to disagree, but in the last 25 years the genre labelled "prog metal" simply turned out this way.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ I read the page again ... apart from the various insults and unsubstantiated complaints about stuff that "doesn't belong here", I found no greater context to add to the statements that I quoted.

If you did, you would know that I didn't present my insults as arguments, but descriptions of what I think is the essential sound of progmetal. Sorry if that is read as insults, but the PM specialists always stresses that its pompous (In a "and that's why we love it" sort of way) and very simple in nature, so that arguments based on comparing it to actual progressive rock is useless. By that they've actually made it impossible to discuss. The only thing left to ask is: Does all this this unprogressive progressive metal that (according to those who should know) has no or very little relation to Prog, be here?

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Symphony X are a key band of prog metal. They belong here. It is written in stone. The same applies to Dream Theater. Those statements cannot be challenged ... you're welcome to disagree, but in the last 25 years the genre labelled "prog metal" simply turned out this way.

Anything can be challenged, but I this time i simply answered to what I considered to be vulgar etc...

Prog Metal isn't simple - most of it is simpler than the best examples of prog rock in *some* aspects, such as form. But it makes up for that in other areas, and whether you like it or not may again depend on totally different aspects. In order to get ahead with this discussion I think we should talk about albums, not genres or artists. For example, let's compare Symphony X - V: The New Mythology Suite and Genesis - Foxtrot. I would prefer V, but I can see how others would prefer Foxtrot. Regardless of personal preference, I would say that the albums aren't in the same genre of music - but I would put the "prog sticker" on both of them, with a clear emphasis on Foxtrot (it's more prog than V, or more precisely: it's part of the original wave of prog recordings, while V is not).

But you've already made up my mind, so I guess there's no point in trying to discuss this. Let's leave it at "presenting opinions", shall we?


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 10 2008 at 11:03

Hey Ivan - I agree with Mr Progfreak to a large extent. If anyone says that Symphony X or Dream Theater aren't prog enough then I really have a problem. They today are defining Prog music. Keep in mind that as of today I really like Karmakanic's music as well as Opeth's. Maybe you mean that it should be classed as Prog Rock - Prog Rock today is using elements of Prog metal in their music as well as visa versa. I've never liked or really understood the term "metal" Maybe when applied to Wasp, Motley Crue, Guns and Roses and the ilk I could accept it. In that case Metal is no more than extreme power pop.

Mr Proghead,  Symphony X - V: The New Mythology Suit is one of the few cases in which I fully understand we're talking about a Prog album, I even done one of my three Prog Metal reviews about it and gave 4 stars, something that can be explained when I read reviewers saying is a Symphonic "Metalish" album.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 10 2008 at 11:16

rogerthat wrote: To be fair to Rocktopus, Epica and Nightwish are not considered prog metal on metal-archives either, it's slotted under gothic/symphonic metal.   Kamelot neither but since I have not heard any of their albums, I won't judge Kamelot. This is bound to happen because the way a proghead looks at prog metal will be different from the way a metalhead looks at it. I presume Nightwish is here because of the symphonic elements - used it in its lay, loose sense, am mindful of the debates that go on here about the connotation of  "symphonic"  - in their music but we simply call it symphonic metal.  And as Ivan said, as long as non-PM collaborators don't fully understand this sub genre, it's going to be difficult to have any meaningful debate on which bands should be included in prog metal and which shouldn't.

Those are the fringes of prog metal ... they're all borderline cases. Nightwish were here long before I even joined (under my old Jedi name of Obi Wan Kenobi Special Collab Account). But if you take a closer look at the music of the bands which have been added you'll find some things which set them apart from other symphonic metal bands. A direct comparison of Evanescence and Epica show fundamental differences - Epica is much more orchestral than Evanescence, and much less mainstream. Rhapsody are often bashed as being completely cheesy and ridiculous, but if you examine the actual music you'll see that it is much more sophisticated than your typical power metal with symphonic/orchestral ornamentations.

Rocktopus wrote:   Very convinient to hide behind: Non-PM collaborators don't understand this sub genre. Maybe the PM collaborators don't understand the main Progrock genre who's site they keep adding all these metalbands in? ... and that's why people who don't listen to this genre 90% of the time disagrees every now and then?

I purely love old Genesis, as of today Karmakanic, Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation. Am learning to like Opeth. One doesn't have to seperate Prog Metal from Prog Rock. They are Prog.