In Defence of Neo-Prog

A nice companion to my thread entitled 'In Praise Of Neo-Prog'.I raised these points before but anyway here we go again!

I like IQ,Flower Kings and Magenta a lot although I am also a fan of ELP,Yes and Genesis etc to name a few.It's all good as far as I'm concerned.The 'classic' prog era was a long time ago.I never had the chance to see ELP and Yes in their prime so I am very pleased to be able to see bands such as IQ and Magenta instead.They understand this tradition of prog and they understand their audience.Some people will always regard these bands as inferior BUT to be perfectly frank I get as much out of listening to IQ and Magenta as I do listening to Yes and ELP.Perhaps that means I'm stupid and/or 'cloth eared' but I don't care.

I think neo prog is stupid too.

I find many bands that people call neo prog are just as complicated as the 70's "Classic" prog bands.

It's ALL just "Progressive Rock" to me.

There are way too many lables we give music. Most of them are nonsense. If they just started out they would be a new prog band.  If they have been around the block a few times they would be a prog band.  "Neo" always seemed to me that yes, it was new but it something different than older bands of the same catagorie. I don't think it aplies to most of the bands mentioned.  Unlike others here I saw the older groups some of them several times but I not had the time to do the same with the newer bands. So to all of you experiencing what you see and hear enjoy it because it may be your good ol' days.

TWIN AGE Lialim High
Review by Hugues Chantraine @ 11:42:48 AM EST, 3/10/2004
PROG REVIEWER

 —  As one can see by the cover we are flying into neo prog fantasy wonderland and I got to exchange my CD the next day (after two listening) for free. So I won't get mean with them, and not say anymore or else ......

 

**********************************************************

 

Hi Lobster41:

 

This is probably the type of comments you're referring to, about neo-prog being looked down upon. To be fair, we've got to admit neo-prog is mostly derivative and purists don't find derivative material quite as satisfying. It's their prerogative and I can understand their point of view. If you like the style, however, by all means, forget the labels and enjoy it.

 

I personally like neo-prog a lot because it has that fresh, unrestrained energy that provides immediate satisfaction. It doesn't have the lasting power of pure prog but when I need a quick fix, there's nothing like a good shot of IQ or Pendragon to satisfy my craving.

 

Don't let anyone tell you their 'fun' is better than yours. You know what you like and you're not alone  !

 

Ciao

Which brings the question: should we be reviewing albums whose genres we really don't like? I personally wouldn't but like you say, Greenback, to each his own business...

POSTED by Hugues (Aka Sean Trane)
PROG ARCHIVES Collaborators

Hello Lobster 41 and everybody else on this thread,

I wish to intervene since one of my reviews has been invoked (although by
Lise-Hibou and not the originator of this thread). I do not put down
neo-prog as a genre although, you are right, I am no great fan. Usually when
I rate an album 3*, that means Good But Non-Essential. When I rate an album
2* it means For Fans Only, that means fans will enjoy this album but
non-fanatics (such as I) should prefer another album or another band if no
album is above 2* in their discography. I, unlike many people take great
care in the numbers of stars I award (I would rather use the Gnosis
non-linear scale of 0 to 15 - I have not seen a better rating system albeit
a bit complicated) and I am very careful about albums that get 5*, but this
is hardly the case with the majority. If you go into the Collaborator page
and click onto the Profile of the Reviewers then look at the Reviews by
Ratings, you will see that most people never go down to 2* and most reviews
stay within the 4 or 5 regions. Am I the only one that buys prog albums I
don't appreciate? If I do buy an album after five or six minutes listening
in the record shop conditions (regular practice in Continental Europe) this
is still not enough to be satisfied at every shot once you are at home. I
get the feeling that some people cannot admit buying a Cd that they don't
like and will listen to it until they get used to it or find that this is
not so bad after all - I get rid of the stuff that I do not appreciate to
finance further my vice. I have the chance to live in Belgium where there is
a state-protected Mediatheque that allows to rent all sorts of medias
(filmed theater plays, rare and forgotten movies, music from all over the
world, etc..) because the state  believe that even the poorer  people should
have access to culture. Needless to say that this backfires because most
people go there to rent Mariah and Terminator but the renting of those
permits the system to acquire unusual stuff - most of the Cuneiform
catalogue is available on reservation and in one week it is at your closest
"Library".  I do take advantage of it and have heard literally thousands of
albums in all genre and therefore can judge on historical grounds the
importance of an album, a dimension I also allow in my ratings. This is also
why people, who do not understand how progressive bands like Cream,
Jefferson Airplane, Spirit, Traffic, Chicago Transit Authority, Audience
etc. are also progressive because of what those artist allowed by the sheer
ground-breaking, those people are short-sighted but also mostly neo fans,
those very same persons who do not like them being categorized. I had to
fight for months (in terms of emails to Max) about Tangerine Dream in this
site simply because they did not meet the requirement of people trying to
define prog rock. Enough of this, guys! Please accept neo as we all do other
names: do you think Germans appreciate the music from their country called
Krautrock (Kraut as in cabbage in reference to sauerkraut)?

I have many friends who would qualify as neo-progheads (I call myself a
proghead as I was a Deadhead in Grateful Dead concerts) and have had this
conversation tooooooo many times (although not in Progarchives, I must say)
and I am a bit tired of it. Neo-prog, as a genre, is acetate of classic prog
but should not be ashamed of it. During the 80's, I discovered musically the
60's (born in 63) though I partied hardy and was subjected to all sorts of
pop and some rock from the early 80's - Marillion's debut still ranks as a
5* but The Wake from IQ deserves less than when I discovered it and I hate
new wave. So yes, I might have a slight prejudice against 80's music due to
my personal history, but to me that particular period is hard to listen to
mostly because of the cheap synths, bands more preoccupied with their look
(should I mention that Hair Rock only existed in that decade) but also the
playing of the drums (Ginger Baker rules - on some Cream numbers he does not
even touch the snare drum). I think much of this anger (if you'll allow me
your call to arms in defence of something not directly attacked) comes from
the fact that neo-progheads love that particular style and the classic prog
equally and are frustrated that older progheads do not like it as much and
maybe dismissing it lightly, to the dismay of the irate neo-man. As for the
name neo, should fans of architecture of the Neo-classic or Neo-gothic
movement be angry because of that movement's name? As far as I am concerned,
(and I know most of us are) , I don't even like the word "progressive rock"
or even less prog , but I use them in terms that are easy for the readers to
comprehend. Another point I make under which neo-prog comes under my
criticism are those bogus concepts (heroic-fantasy or sci-fi - when Rush
started, OK but enough is enough, let's not kill a dead horse) where one
looks at Y&T or Molly Hatchet art sleeves for gleeful inspiration. Please
read my review of Sommerabend of Novalis to get a good laugh - I certainly
did writing it - and they do not qualify as neo-prog but rather as overly
symphonic. For that matter, very few groundbreaking in our beloved musical
movement since, say 75, and this is a sad state of affairs. Outside of
Paatos and GYBE!, who has broken new ground lately? Certainly not Twin Age.
That review also depends of my mood also. At the time, and I remember the
day before almost yelling at a neo-proghead friend that this very subject
(and especially the endless discussions where no-one will give in to the
other) should be closed or else he would become a Neo-enemy :).

As for being biased towards Francophone groups, one should read my reviews
on Ange and its clone bands to be less sure about that view. Also, please
note that only French and English (Dutch lyrics in prog I have yet top hear
other than in Poetica In Silencio - yes they are Dutch - and I am about to
investigate Spanish and South-American prog in the months to come but, you
guessed it , I'll start in the 70's)  lyrics are understood by yours truly
(this is probably why not many Italian groups appeal to me to the point of
giving more than 4*) and I do take in consideration the poetic nature (or
humorous - Hastings and Ian Anderson are absolute faves of mine along with
Peter The Gabe) for the ratings. Greenback, I may be severe but I also think
that most of the writers should also be - this to avoid deception following
a glowing review (""much ado about nothing" said the man). When I give a 5*,
I like to think it can be trusted. BTW, try Circus Movin' On, Maneige (if
you can find Les Porches- almost totally instrumental) or Sloche (mainly
instrumental), to see what a five star is all about.

I don't intervene much in the forum (I have yet to make my official
entry/log-in), I do read it, though. But when I do, as you can read, it is
one Mother of Intervention (to paraphrase Tull's Tramp about TAAB and a wink
to Zappa). Thanks for reading me in full and not take a sentence out of its
context. I will be back on Monday to read eventual reactions to this
message.


Progressively yours
Peace
Hugues Aka Sean Trane

Hello Hugues,

 

Very cool of you to respond despite the fact you’re not officially logged in.

 

About my posting your review to illustrate lobster41’s comment: I could have picked anyone’s review, really. But I’m glad I picked yours because you gave us one ‘Mother’ of a response (as you said). I may not agree with everything you say - or even the way you rate your albums - but at least I understand a bit better the reasoning behind it.

 

As for this perennial "prog vs neo-prog" thing: it seems to me the human race is forever inventing new dichotomies and I’m afraid we’re stuck with this one for a while. The best we can do is try and stick together as progsters by sparing our respective sensibilities as much as possible. I guess that’s what this thread is about, eh?

 

BTW, I do find your reviews a bit severe for my own tastes but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them. Boring is never a word that comes to mind!

 

Ciao 

 

Lise

 

Hibou wrote:

Which brings the question: should we be reviewing albums whose genres we really don't like? I personally wouldn't but like you say, Greenback, to each his own business...

 

Here I strongly (but respectfully) disagree with you Hibou, a person can’t be called a good reviewer if he only does articles about the bands he likes, this would be too easy, listen an album you love, make a review and rate between 4 or 5 stars every album. Surely everybody will love this reviews, because every proghead wants to read praises about their favourite bands, but this is not serious.

 

A reviewer is here to help other people with their knowledge about a determined album, if it’s a masterpiece, ok, give 4 or 5 stars, but if the reviewer honestly believes a determined album is crap, has the moral obligation to tell people what he honestly believes.

 

I would have thanked anyone who told me that OVO was not a typical Gabriel album before I bought it and threw it into my closet with the CD’s I never listen. I bought it only for the name of Peter Gabriel and because I like all his albums but honestly hated OVO.

 

So, it’s ok if you review music or genres you don't like, if mot all reviews would have 5 stars and this wouldn't help anybody.

 

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: ...if the reviewer honestly believes a determined album is crap, he has the moral obligation to tell people what he honestly believes. Iván

 

I agree 100 % with you about this, Yván. We definitely shouldn't give an automatic 4 or 5 stars to bands we love. It happens far too often and it is totally unfair to readers. What I mean is that by reviewing bands we like - to start with - we at least know what we're talking about (at least I hope we do!). From there, we, the reviewer, should have the honesty to rate the albums accordingly. I've personally given a crappy rating (2 stars) to bands I hold in the highest esteem (Fish, Genesis, the Flower Kings, Lands End, even my god incarnate, Tony Banks).

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't even venture into reviewing any Dream Theater albums. Why? Not being a big metal fan, I'd probably give their best albums 2 or 3 stars at most. Any reader interested in seeing how DT fares on this or that album would therefore get a totally wrong impression. He'd know what I think alright, but not what a TD connaisseur thinks (assuming the connaisseur was honest in his review).

I agree entirely with Iván's statement that a reviewer should not just review albums from bands he likes.

Hibou, your example of Dream Theater is apposite: did you read Peter Rideout's review of "Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II" a while back? Peter apparently does not like the sub-genre nor the album, and his review even generated some discussion in this forum at the time. However, I think his review of that album is useful - and I'm glad he posted it - because it is helpful for readers to see 'both sides of a coin'.

When I read-up on an album with which I'm not familiar, I would like to have opinions from all parts of the spectrum, not just from people who are fans of the band or of the sub-genre. That way I may be warned not to get an album or, alternatively, that it is something fresh and new and would appeal to fans of other sub-genres as well.