The Stranglers???

BaldJean wrote: I think I realize your problem, Ivan. you are speaking as someone who is trying to see the Stranglers as symphonic prog. this will of course fail; they aren't and don't fit into that category at all. but there is a lot of prog out there which is VERY repetitive (just think of Can, for example)

"Black and White" is a good start.

Angelo wrote: Guess The Stranglers got lucky, they were rejected for PR 6 months ago. If they don't make it through the controversial procedure,

thank you, Cert ; I tried to point out that confusion by explaining about pseudo-polyphony and quint parallels, but I may have been too academic

OK, three successive listens to 'Black and White' is all I can spare given a looming deadline. Here's some thoughts, in no sensible order. (Caveats: I'm no music expert etc.)

A lot of the baroque ornamentation common in symphonic prog is missing here, deliberately of course. The supposedly 'punk' vocals, for example, are sung deadpan, with no vibrato, with little of the theatrics of early punk vocals. So they sound nothing like a 'classic prog' band - if you mean by that a British symphonic prog band. But they sure as hell don't sound like a punk band either.

I'm a big fan of CARDIACS, and while THE STRANGLERS don't come from exactly the same tin, they're off the same shelf. I thoroughly approve of the music. Love the bass (in 'Threatened' for example). Come on, this isn't your typical musically challenged garage band or punk outfit. Not within a hundred miles. Not so sure of the lyrics: doubt you'd get away with some of them nowadays.

Can't say I heard a hint of polyphony, unless you're meaning independent keyboard and vocal lines (eg 'Enough Time'): that sort of stuff is quite common, isn't it? I wouldn't compare it to GG or VDGG.

'Toiler on the Sea' is a masterpiece. Puts me in mind of early SPLIT ENZ, who predate punk. Actually, I don't think one needs to refer to punk to understand them: from the one album I've heard I discern a lot of THE WHO. 'Sweden', 'Threatened' and 'Do You Wanna/Death and Night and Blood' are also classics.

But do they come from the prog shelf? Certainly not the prog shelf as we anglophiles knew it in the 1970s. But our understanding of prog has broadened since then. This isn't primarily prog, but it's helluva proggy. I'd have absolutely no problem with the band being added to the archives based on this album. Perhaps in the same category as CARDIACS.

I'll get me some more some time in the future.

the most advanced form of polyphony in prog, by the way, can be heard in Peter Hammill's opera "The Fall of the House of Usher". no wonder it took him over 20 years to write it; Hammill is not a classically trained composer, and it is really remarkable what he came up with there. "The Fall of the House of Usher" makes "Knots" by Gentle Giant (another example of polyphony) appear simple in comparison. it is a full-fledged opera indeed (at least in the 1999 version)

Is it just me, or does one of the many keyboard hook lines in "Don't Bring Harry" (especially the intro bit) sound a LOT like the hook in "Kayleigh" by Marillion?

Edited by Certif1ed - October 13 2008 at 04:55

Certif1ed wrote:     There is clear confusion here - sorry Ivan, but it's true - between Polyphony (multiple independent voices) and simple part harmony - or indeed, its most corrupt form, parallel chord movement.   The latter is corrupt, in the worst cases, because performers simply follow identical lines at a fixed pitch below or above the main harmony line. This involves next to no compositional skill.   Polyphony requires real compositional skill, because not only do you have to satisfy the need for clear, separate parts with melodic beauty/logic  in themselves, but also the vertical harmonic aspects. Skilled polyphonists will put off harmonic resolution until later, creating odd, sometimes jarring moments. Since the payback is later in time, this can be difficult for the casual ear to detect, so is unsuitable for most pop music.   This practice also implies a clear overview of form - one of the most overlooked (because it's difficult) aspects of rock music writing. If you're involved in true polyphonic writing, chances are that you're not focussing on verse, chorus, bridge, etc., but are instead having to concentrate like mad on what I would consider a "higher" form (if only because it requires thought, skill, artistry and logic to bring it about).   The other things polyphonic writers have to be careful and skilful with are rhythm (astonishing cross-rhythms and polyrhythms can emerge, if you get it right, but misjudge, and the whole thing sounds a mess.), and timbre (ie, if the voices don't work well together, and the dynamic is poor, then you might just as well not bother.     REAL Polyphony is difficult, IMO - for what that's worth to anyone - and I do admire the Stranglers' frequent experimentations in that area - although I think that most of it comes from a musical arrogance more befitting a Prog band of the untrained variety (and there are many!) - even though the music is more polished and precise than many of the educated bands.   The Stranglers merely "made it" during the UK Punk revolution of the mid 1970s - they formed in respectable Guildford in 1973, but had their first hit with "Peaches"/"Go Buddy Go" in 1977. This single, like "God Save the Queen" by the Sex Pistols (released around the same time), was banned from airplay ("Go Buddy Go" was played instead), and, like GSTQ, was first released in a highly controversial sleeve, featuring lettering cut from newspapers - so are only really Punk by association - ie, the music is aggressive, and not heavy metal, ergo punk (to a straw man...). The replacement sleeve for "Peaches" is remarkably similar to the cover of Gentle Giant's "Acquiring the Taste", if you think about it...

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: in the past two weeks I have added or recommended for addition two Eclectic (One of them "Andrés Ruiz", very close to Avant), one Folk and one Avant Jazz band (Antihéroes).   Yesterday I recommended Friedre a band called  Factor Burzaco which I believe you liked also, and that's as far as can be from Symphonic.

Just a couple of precistions, because I don't want to continue a discussion about a band I can care less about (this is honest) and which IMO should had never been suggested:

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 14 2008 at 12:45