Global economic meltdown..

With governments bailing out banks, share prices falling through the floor, property markets collapsing, unemployment rocketting, are we witnessing just another global economic storm, from which we'll recover in the usual cyclical way? Or, are we witnessing the total collapse of a political/economic system, whereby our greed has come back to bite us on the ass, in an irreprable way?

Chris, the scenario you describe is prety much how it should be in my opinion. I imagine this view is shared by many. It's just a shame we have to drag the whole world into what could be the worst recession in a century just so that we could return to where we were before; arguably a inevitable outcome to the crisis.

Vompatti wrote: What's the problem, really? If the government needs more money, they can always print some. It people need more money, they can ask for the government to print them some (or, if they have a decent printer, print some themselves).

fandango wrote: Weren't 'Global Economic Meltdown' a Punk band from Bracknell in the late '70s??....     Syzygy wrote: We could see a return to the Keyneseian 'third way', with utilities and essential services in public ownership but with industry remaining in the hands of private enterprise.   That is what I am sincerely hoping for...what we used to term 'Social Reformism'.    As we have discussed in here before though, how is this to be done?  During the Thatcher years, we started to live the good life, benefitting from artificially low taxation, while the government was awash with cash receipts, firstly from the sale of its housing stock, then its private utiliites (if you see Sid, tell him...) and then from selling off or asset stripping its heavy industry base (British Steel/ Coal etc).   This continued apace through the Major and Blair years, where institutions were sold off, which even Thatcher herself wouldn't have touched, such as prisons, psychiatric services, transport, healthcare etc.  Not only aren't we in a position to buy any of it back, but Brown has racked up a phenominal amount of debt on the 'tick' through funding new PFI hospitals, schools and council buildings, which won't be paid off for another 30 plus years....   Why has no-one really said anything about this??  Because the UK public has been living on a 25 year illusion of affluence (started by Thatcher making credit accessible to all, in order to fuel and enable owner-occupiers), where an increasingly high percentage of our eceonomy has been serviced entirely by rising personal debt and irresponsible lending....   Now for the first time in over 20 years are we hearing the government talk about investing in our manufacturing base... well, I wonder whether its actually too late for this...as the far east and India are now also capable of making much of the specialised, high yield equipment market, which Europe has previously monopolised...   I'm sorry Andy, this hasn't answered your question, and has turned into a bit of a rant, for which I apologise......but everyone could see the edge of the cliff on the horizon, but those with the power had too many vested interests...   so, we're buggered....

Ahh, so it was you who voted 'buggered' I must admit I was thinking along the same lines, although as with any poll if you'd asked me on Sunday I may have gone for 'shafted'

Seriously, Jared do you really think a punk band in Bracknell in the late 70's, would have been educated enough to have called themselves 'Global Economic Meltdown' ?? Sounds more like a prog fusion outfit from Sunningdale! I believe Bracknells premier punk band at the turn of the decade was The Screws..so that gives you some idea..

Anyway, with regard to your very insightful rant, I have to say I agree with much of what you say. There has long been a fear that the illusion of wealth can not be sustained. The situation is very serious in my opinion, and while I'm sure it wont be the end of the world, or capitilism for that matter, the global economic landscape will be very different when we come out of the other end of this.

I have long been saying that gradually, over the course of the 21st century we will swop economies with the Far East, because of the low labour costs, and the ever increasing amount of highly qualified people being turned oput of their universities. Throwing money at our current problems over here, is not going to change the fact that any compnay with an expensive manufacturing and R'n'D base will be able to operate at a fraction of their current costs if they move to India, for example. Western economies can not be sustained by financial services and coffee shop franchises alone.   

Blacksword wrote: Seriously, Jared do you really think a punk band in Bracknell in the late 70's, would have been educated enough to have called themselves 'Global Economic Meltdown' ?? Sounds more like a prog fusion outfit from Sunningdale! I believe Bracknells premier punk band at the turn of the decade was The Screws..so that gives you some idea..

fandango wrote: Blacksword wrote: Seriously, Jared do you really think a punk band in Bracknell in the late 70's, would have been educated enough to have called themselves 'Global Economic Meltdown' ?? Sounds more like a prog fusion outfit from Sunningdale! I believe Bracknells premier punk band at the turn of the decade was The Screws..so that gives you some idea..       on a lighter note...do you remember the sit com 'Shelley'?   he and his mate were down the pub (in about 1980) talking about whether the average man in the street was affected by the thought of the possibility of the pressing of the button and the end of the world...   so he stops a punk and says 'Excuse me, do you ever think about 'Global Nuclear Destruction'?   and the punk replies...yeah...great band...

I do remember Shelly. I think the actor who played him has since turned up as a villain in a multitude of soaps including The Bill and Eastenders.

I would like, for a moment to put a positive spin on all this....

chopper wrote: BaldJean wrote: I don't believe in a recession at all. some banks collapsed, yes. so what? banks only deal with money, which has no value in itself. the factories are all still there. the manpower also is all still there. so this is nothing that can't be overcome. it would be different if there had been some big natural catastrophe. but the crash of a bank only is a pseudo-catastrophe. mark that I am not saying it won't affect us at all. but please put it into perspective Speaking as employee of a bank with 50,000 odd employees around the world, the crash of a bank is a bit more than a pseudo-catastrophe.

it is a personal catastrophe for you, and I feel really sad for you and certainly don't want to make light of it. however, something like that was to be expected, and we (Friede and I) have been waiting for it for years. we knew this bubble would burst sooner or later. it is actually amazing it did not burst earlier.
nevertheless, one should not confuse this with a real catastrophe. the real values still exist. but when dealing with symbols of symbols of symbols of symbols, as it happens in the stock market, people lose touch of reality. a share is a piece of paper, nothing more. this would not have happened had the responsible people kept that in mind. but it is a fact that human beings can't deal with too many layers of abstraction, as is the case when dealing with the stock market (there are at least 5 layers of abstraction involved when dealing with it).
I sincerely hope you will get out of your personal trouble very soon and keep my fingers crossed for you


Edited by BaldJean - October 08 2008 at 09:26

I'm not going to pretend I know the first thing about economics, but money is also 'a piece of paper' with only a symbolic value... but the last time money effectively didn't exist was in the early middle ages. A fantastic time - to read about... a lot has changed since then, and probably largely due to existence of money.

Oh, and Baldjean - yes, the real values still exist. In China.