Should Metallica be in the forum?

The poll is pretty meaningless, for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.  And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum. 

One thing I will say is that I tried to listen to both sides, but I think that the communication, understanding, respecting and exploring different viewpoints was lacking at times.  Too often comments get dismissed, ignored, or deflected that don't support one's point of view.  It's a learning process.   The important think now is to respect the decision even if one doesn't agree, and respect those who thought differently.

As for whether or not it's Prog, that is debatable, and I don't expect that debate to end now, but it should at least end here.  I'm glad a decision has been reached -- on to other things.  *Laurie Anderson* cough


Edited by Logan - September 30 2008 at 18:58

Well, if majority polls would be all it takes to add artists, it wouldn't take much effort to add Spice Girls or Justin Timberlake in here ;-)

It can be a useful tool to validate some opinions if utilized in the correct manner though - and in this case it spawned a good debate; one of the best I've seen since I started lurking here.

One fact all parts in this debate can readily agree upon, is that whatever the outcome of this debate was to be, there would be people not happy about the result. But a decision have been made now - time to move on.

The T wrote: Ok... I've no problems with Zafreth..  And with nobody in general.... Please, for the 349873 time, let's wait....  I guess we all said what we had to say... Unless we start repeating ourselves...

Atavachron wrote: it's been a good, hearty, mostly honest discussion and the decision is well-taken  ..and I suspect the 'debate' has only just begun, with a firestorm of controversy ready-made once they're added, threads as 'Metalli-suck on PA? You People Are Ignorant, or Corrupt' ..even with all the "they're just Progrelated" reassurances, it'll be fun.. in the words of one beloved SC; *munch munch*

Testament

Logan wrote: The poll is pretty meaningless,   So meaningless that it was started to support Metallica because the odds were against them.   for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.   I feel this is offensive Logan, this means that all the ones who agree with you are OK but the ones that don't..Kee jerk reaction...I believe I heard this exact term before.     And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum.    And isn't it possible for a  emtalñhead not familliar with Metallica to vote in favour? I remember a month before Octavarium was released and when the album was kept in secrret, we already had almost 100  ratings giving it 5 stars and reviews calling it the masterpiece of the century, when as a fact they had only listened a bunch of old La'Brie tracks. In my case I never dare to talk about a band I haven't heard before.   Iván

^Ivan, your opinion is valid. The only thing that bothers me (and not so much in this thread but from another one in a different section) is the fact that you've said that here we add bands just because we want to, because they're our favorite bands. I invite you to read all this thread if you have time to waste (because that's what it will be for you, seeing that you don't like neither Metallica nor prog-metal if I'm not wrong) and see if ANY of the addition's main supporters have not given at least a few real, musical arguments.

Edited by The T - September 30 2008 at 21:58

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   To be honest, UI don't see any valid argument by eiyther site, I've been reading the posts and the main argument is that they are ibnfluencial, but the big question is influential on Prog or influential on Metal, I believe it's the second. And the argument for your judgment is?   It was srtarted by a supporter, until today, when a band I proposed was rejected, I used to shut up and say nothing again, but seems that lobbying and insisting is the clue. The real issue emerges.   But, they are already here, we're one step closer to be a general music site, and again as always will shut up because here's no point to say anything, the won't be removed.   Perhaps you don't grasp the intended meaning of "prog related"?

I told Peter that I'd avoid this type of colour-coded posting, and that I don't like to break up posts, or leave out related content, since context can be lost.  Never-the-less, using proper quote tags might be a hassle.  Me family wants my attention, so, the lazy way.  Me in black and then for my latest n purple.

WinterLight wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Logan wrote: The poll is pretty meaningless,   So meaningless that it was started to support Metallica because the odds were against them. I think that what Logan means is that the results of this poll, like those of all polls in general, need to be taken cum grano salis, especially when the poll is not scientifically constructed nor technical expertise is available.  In other words, it is naive to maintain there is a one-to-one correspondence between the poll and reality.  Any statistician will tell you this, counselor. Thank you. Yes.  As a general guide to opinion it's alright, but it's the arguments that matter much more.  And I also explained why I felt this particular poll not very useful in the rest of my paragraph.  Generally, it goes for polls in Prog Polls, though I use them as complementary to discussion, I tend not to find them in and of themselves of much use beyond showing people's biases in a general way.  Check out the greatest polls.  It doesn't tell who is objectively greatest, the results only show biases (commonly people don't even know the various choices well, or know enough of the choices to come to any real conclusion.  Sometimes people vote when only two choices are listed for the only one they know).   for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.   I feel this is offensive Logan, this means that all the ones who agree with you are OK but the ones that don't..Kee jerk reaction...I believe I heard this exact term before. Observe the character of posts in this thread.  Many of those favoring induction provided something resembling a coherent argument, whereas the dissenters generally failed to write anything substantive to support their view.  Sounds like "knee-jerk" is applicable here. No it doesn't mean that, Ivan.  Would you feel as offended, Ivan, if you realised that I don't support Metallica's inclusion?  I meant knee-jerk reactions irregardless of which side one is on.  I was rather offended when someone on the pro-Metallica as Prog Metal side said that no one had provided musical arguments against Metallica's inclusion.  Just because one doesn't consider another poster's argument valid does not make it a non-argument.  The next paragraph of my post which you did not quote here, or respond to, touched on those issues, but does not lay blame on any side.  I tried to be fair.   And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum.    And isn't it possible for a  emtalñhead not familliar with Metallica to vote in favour? Absolutely, of course.  See why I don't think the results of much value in and of themselves? I remember a month before Octavarium was released and when the album was kept in secrret, we already had almost 100  ratings giving it 5 stars and reviews calling it the masterpiece of the century, when as a fact they had only listened a bunch of old La'Brie tracks. Yeah. In my case I never dare to talk about a band I haven't heard before. Excellent, but others do.  I talk about bands I've never heard before, I just don't pretend to be an authority, or pretend to know the music.  I might discuss what I've read etc. It's important to be clear on that, of course.   Iván Excuse me if I add in the nest paragraph of my post. One thing I will say is that I tried to listen to both sides, but I think that the communication, understanding, respecting and exploring different viewpoints was lacking at times.  Too often comments get dismissed, ignored, or deflected that don't support one's point of view.  It's a learning process.   The important think now is to respect the decision even if one doesn't agree, and respect those who thought differently. Even if I don't agree with the decision, I will respect the admins' decision.  I actually don't care much one way or the other, and don't know enough of the music to have a very strong stance.  I was just left unconvinced by the arguments, and was not that satisfied with the response to my concerns.  It sometimes felt more adversarial, nit-picky, and dismissive than really trying to explain, or explore the notions/ gist -- not that one should have to explain. Too often people miss or sidetrack the point of a post (espcially when they get too caught up in minutia).

Edited by Logan - September 30 2008 at 23:37

i think 50 needs to be hit