Should Metallica be in the forum?

HughesJB4 wrote: zafreth wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I've found an article that gives the strongest possible argument for Metallica as not only Prog-Related, but Prog Metal (and gives the same argument for Iron Maiden, interestingly!); http://headbangersblog.mtv.com/2008/02/18/guest-blog-dream-theater-drummer-mike-portnoy-pledges-allegiance-to-one-nation-under-prog/ The paragraph in question is a little way down and reads;   "For just a little while there, in the early ’90s, Dream Theater seemed to be the posterboys for a whole new wave of PROG. But shhh… I’ll let you in on a little secret: we weren’t the first post-metal band to perform this hybrid of styles!! As much as I love taking the credit for combining prog and metal (like the man who first decided to put peanut butter and jelly together), if you look closely at metal circa 1985, Iron Maiden were playing 13 minute epic songs like “Rime Of The Ancient Mariner” and covering Jethro Tull, Metallica were playing long songs with odd time signatures and abrupt meter changes — and so were bands like Helloween, Mercyful Fate, King Diamond and Fates Warning. Then, there were bands like Queensryche, which was combining the power of Judas Priest with the theatrics of Queen."     ...although maybe we don't want to consider Helloween too seriously...   Cert may i ask something?? thanks. what are the goal to put Metallica in PA?, What are your motivations to add Metallica in PA, if are any other pages that you can write your thoughts or reviews??   Do not understand why are you so eager in this??? All your questions have already been answered.. some more than once in this thread. And your last line was not a question

Why the people do not like to being added Metallica to PA, speaks for???

zafreth wrote: Why the people do not like to being added Metallica to PA, speaks for???   As long as i can see 48 votes, opinions or whatever you like to name are opossed to add Metallica to PA.   Why  do not contribute.

zafreth wrote: Yes, Dean, i urge to all the people that not like to see Metallica in PA, explain the reasons, contribute , participate with STRONG arguments why not.   It seems that i'm alone in this...

That's not the way it works. Bands are not automatically Prog until proven otherwise. They are something else and the onus is on those who want the band added to present a valid argument as to why they belong. And the judges (PA addition teams) will decide if that argument is valid. Much the same as a person is innocent until proven guilty, Metallica is a metal band only until proven prog, those who do not think they are have the right to remain silent. Hopefully in the upcoming U.S. general election I don't get a knock at the door from some guy who tells me my vote is not valid until I explain my reasoning. that would be annoying.

Another thing to look at is whether the band would think its a good thing to be a part of PA. I think a ast majority of PA bands consider it an honor (maybe honor is to strong a word) to be a part of the site. Something tells me attaching a prog tag of any type to Metallica would be considered at some level a form of castration.

 

People often prefer to moan about additions once in than offer arguments against the addition when it's being proposed.  The best posts commonly provide both pros and cons, and are more exploratory in nature, when it comes to less straight-forward additions.

Avantgardehead wrote: It's because posts against adding a band are never considered, so all these non-prog bands will make it in anyway while the supporters will rationalize anything and everything while completely ignoring the counterpoints.   Exactly ,in my case i receive severe critics because i dare to see the Metallica's Lyrics of the first two albums... Personally, I see Metallica has having nothing to do with prog but having minor progressive elements (not near enough to matter, I think). Sure, they have long songs, rhythmic complexity, and little "progressive" guitar bits and crap, but so do plenty of other metal bands who aren't prog. To me, the rationalization that Metallica should be here is very suspect. I see the attitude of which they are pro Metallica  they are taken hold of anything that sounds complicated to justify the inclusion to PA, and at the same time, take as much very few arguments that describe almost like court favorites, is not made, since rather  just seem to me a whim that Metallica will be here in PA.

Sheesh, if you guys really want to review Metallica albums and discuss them, why don't you all join Metal-Archives? Way more like-minded people there than on here...

I'm actually surprised the vote is so close, it shows a growth in support for them as a metal band that was progressive, and it's a noticeable shift in opinion



 

Chris Stacey wrote: Logan wrote: People often prefer to moan about additions once in than offer arguments against the addition when it's being proposed.  The best posts commonly provide both pros and cons, and are more exploratory in nature, when it comes to less straight-forward additions.   Good point but don't you think it is like flogging a dead horse now? Surely the PMT need to  make the call where Metallica go and then as a previous post mentions the "shocked" outcry will happen after the addition. There are many credible collaborators and reviewers/posters who have made the right justification for inclusions......so talks about talks....or......addition?

PMT did make the call before by rejecting Metallica for Prog Metal (though not unanimous and some don't work with the team anymore (I believe), and one new member didn't vote on an already rejected horse):  http://progfreak.com/home/progarchives.xhtml?path=pm%2Fall&block=17

HP	MS	C	Artist	TP	T	bu	AV	UI	At	Tr	iv	ho	Ra	MR	Section
		us	Metallica

But decisions are reversible -- sometimes reconsidered.  Need not be immutable decisions cast in stone  The proposed new prog metal definition that is still being worked on I believe may open the parameters of PM to more easily allow Metallica in (to put it glibly, it could help define Metallica as a Prog Metal band into existence).

That said, it has been proposed to Prog Related (and even Proto Prog though it does not fit current parameters), and I haven't heard that the PR team has come to a decision based on weighing up the for and against arguments.  Until they reject it as well (or ask to put it on hold), it's not a dead horse for PA inclusion (and even rejected bands sometimes are reevaluated and included in categories -- often because of new proggy material, but sometimes not -- sometimes it's just new thinking based on new material or even old checked material that is reconsidered).

Irregardless of whether or not it is ever included in whatever category, it's a lively discussion, and interesting to think what effect such an addition would have on future additions and the direction of the site (some people are for a more inclusive and broader site, others are fine with the status quo, and many would rather see a narrower Prog focus, and quite a few are only inclusive when it comes to music they like).  So this discussion has a broader scope than just Metallica, and that's a reason why some fear it.  They fear it would lead to more additions which will further dilute this Prog site.

I don't think the shocked outcry should come after the addition (certainly not for those who have followed it)... People should know what to expect, but shocked outrage often does follow (and not just with new members... As if ya didn't know, already... Well, some don't).  Speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace.   As if people would.... Now is the better time to speak than after the fact (though one can speak at both times), and with an addition like this, well-expressed opinions by anyone are much more likely to be taken into account than with other additions.

Speak out only after the fact and one may get a response like, "Metallica is in the archives, and will not be removed, deal with it!" Or "You should have said something at the time, presented your case, when we were discussing it for potential inclusion."

Anyway, I'm all for free discussion, so if people want to discuss it, then let 'em have their fun.



Edited by Logan - September 08 2008 at 16:54

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ just one thing: A few years ago (in 2006) we decided not to use the prog related symbol on the prog metal team chart anymore ... so given the choice of yes or no, and that Metallica were added, I voted yes to indicate that I would accept them as prog-related.

Ah, I see, so then from the team votes for Metal thus far, all I can say is "And Then There Was T" (assuming his vote was not for related since he has offered support for it as a Prog Metal band).

Anyway, at the least it seems that the battle for related rages on....

EDIT: Incidentally, why did you do that?  That could lead to confusion, and I think it may explain why certain "related" bands were added to Prog Metal. lolz


Edited by Logan - September 08 2008 at 17:10