Is Steely Dan prog ?

Hawkwise wrote: Dr. Occulator wrote: All you ne'sayers can gnash your teeth if you want. What's the good in raising ire about such a subjective question? Steely Dan are here. I believe from what I've read that the majority of people on this site hold them in high reverence. They are in my opinion progressive in that they have a high level of musicianship, thought-provoking lyrics, arrangements which are surpassed by few and a style so totally unique that no-one before or since have been able to better. I know there are limits to what is acceptable as prog (crossover-prog) but the Dan to me are not even close to being contentious. It's not like Nickleback or James Blunt are being added to the Progressive Archives.haha I would say a more rewarding approach would be to open yourself to a band that have a long track record of ground breaking art and have elevated a form of music to a point where they set the bar for others to come.   Thats all well and good but does that make them Prog ?? thinking um No

Well, yes, in my book it does and from what I can see from the Pa book, it does too, croosover-prog that is.


Edited by Dr. Occulator - August 27 2008 at 18:51

have sort of laid low here... because to be honest... I have already moved on to evaluating and preparing additions for the 'real' prog bands you all seem to want... yet never recoginize when added 

Anyway...I am a frim believer in the idea that prog is a personal thing.. .we all our notions of prog... what each of you has to understand.  And judging by the replies here.. I think you do.. because all of you merely expressed your opinion. Some here... are pretty obvious they really haven't heard much of anything from the group.. others have ..and still don't agree.  That is the beauty of the site.  There are no hard and fast guidelines here...  the collabs here are a diverse group... of different nationalities.. backgrounds.. ages.. and of course ..views about prog.  The strength of this site is the site respects all those and is an inclusive site.  If one doesn't agree .. or thinks that a group simply isn't prog...  your world won't come crashing down.  You have two choices... ignore it and understand that while you don't agree ... others here do..... or ..as I am proud to see... you might  take a closer look at the group..  move past the songs that you might. heard on the radio.. listen CLOSER..  as good prog fans should..  which leads me to answer the OP. SInce I added the group.. here is my explanation as to why they were added...

so I offer this as my two cents to the thread...

Taken from another discussion.. as you might imagine.. this is not the only place where this addtion was discussed hahhaha

micky wrote: a handsome sexy guy wrote: That is a good quote Michael used "Whereas Prog Related bands are generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly progressive with elements of popular music" and clarifies prog/ non-prog matters.  Of course one can be progressive without being Prog, however (the old "small p" progressive versus "big P" progressive). I've had nothing substantial to add to such an excellent explanation, but I will just echo that Prog is not easily quantified, or qualified.  It's hardly an absolute value (prog/ non-prog/ semi-prog/ kind of semi-proggish). We do have different delineations and expectations (I'm not a purist even if I'm more of a purist when it comes to the team I am on ).  Nomenclature is the bane of the archivist. not just a quote Greg... that IS Xover...  again... our genre teams.. make that determination between big P and little p.  There are not rules... unless.. as I posted earlier in this thread.. we fire all the genre teams.. and hire monkees to add the groups that are only KNOWN as prog.   Our genre teams don't do that of course...  we all evaluate the music on it's merits... it is harder to do with bigger name groups.  Steely Dan.... first off....  even the numbnuts at the R&R HOF acknowledged that SD was a group that succeed..  all while breaking every rule in the book to BE non-commerical.  They were artists in pursuit of their craft with little thought to selling albums or filling stadiums... as prog as far as that goes as Yes, Genesis or KC were. Musically...  the biggest selling point of this group... short of extended compositions... and their influences of course.. they were as prog again as our dear hero's.  Highly intelligent thoughtful lyrics.. delivered in obtuse ways that challenged the listener to gleen the meanings.  A subtle complexity that as all know.. challenged the best musicians money could buy.. no it was not in your face as other groups were.  But does it have to be to be considered prog.  Of course not.  They did have chart success.. so did many prog bands... and especially after CBaT.. they were not exactly simple pop songs...  they were just crafted so damn well... the public ate it up.  Again... is it not prog just because for once the public didn't snap up stupid sh*t for hit singles hahahha. The point is...  not everyone is going to agree with the addition (news huh )  but with a bit of listening.. and understanding ... I think the logic of the addition is crystal clear.  As I posted somewhere else...  no everyone will agree....  but the best you can hope for is for people to understand the addition.  Another collab.. who again.. will remain nameless because I'm not drawing people into this unwillingly hahhaha...  said that SD is a completely misunderstood group.  I couldn't agree more... hope that helps for anyone who has doubts ... though...  been here long enough to know that once opinions are set.. . they rarely change.

^ which again.. would be a problem if they were added in symphonic.  It isn't traditional prog...  let's put it this way... if what you want to see here are 'traditional' prog bands... you've got them.. for they have pretty much been added except for the rare and obscure that we still come up with and add every day.   If that is what you expect from the site....  great.. you HAVE that here. If however.. you are looking for great music that as a prog fan you can identify with...and see.. while they might not be considered prog in a text .. or by other sites.. or whatever.  Musicaly... they either are.. or are VERY close to being prog and thus... a worthy exploration for the adventureous prog fan.  Again.. where they are prog or not is REALLY not the question...  do they belong on the site....  as David said earlier...  Prog is a personal definition... however you are really going out on a limb to express the opinion that this group did not make true progressive rock.  That alone..  gets them into this site. 

and of course.. .they were ....

Crossover Prog definition: Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk. Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication, sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is often on a par with established Prog acts. Much like their kin in the established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form.

The defining characteristics of Crossover Prog are a pop music influence that is largely vacant in typical prog rock. Songs tend toward shorter, more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern. The harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic structures may be more easily digested in Crossover while not losing the musical integrity that a prog listener expects. Whereas Prog Related bands are generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly progressive with elements of popular music.

Epignosis wrote: Atavachron wrote: Epignosis wrote: I can't think of one song that would qualify them to be here. then why don't you list each song from each album, analyze it, and grace us with your experience, taste and wisdom I don't have to prove a universal negative.  Those who regard Steely Dan as something of a progressive rock band should make the case that they belong here.

I believe we've done that...all you have to do is read our logic from various pro Steely prog Dan fans.
Obviously your idea of what songs constitute prog differ from mine and others as well.
All I'm trying to say is they're here now so IMO it is probably better for us to agree to differ and accept that.

Epignosis wrote: Dr. Occulator wrote: Epignosis wrote: Atavachron wrote: Epignosis wrote: I can't think of one song that would qualify them to be here. then why don't you list each song from each album, analyze it, and grace us with your experience, taste and wisdom I don't have to prove a universal negative.  Those who regard Steely Dan as something of a progressive rock band should make the case that they belong here. I believe we've done that...all you have to do is read our logic from various pro Steely prog Dan fans. Obviously your idea of what songs constitute prog differ from mine and others as well. All I'm trying to say is they're here now so IMO it is probably better for us to agree to differ and accept that. I am certainly willing to accept that my idea of progressive rock is less inclusive than that of this website.  But I am participating in this forum topic and unashamedly expressing my opinion- and judging from the current poll results (15 Yea, 40 Nay), I'm clearly not a minority here.  Quite a bit of Steely Dan is jazzy pop, with catchy hooks and funky bits here and there.  It's good, I enjoy it, but it isn't progressive rock. I'll be a Dutchman too, I guess.

It's OK with me,,,I'll say no more.

mrgd wrote: . AND, by the way, I never knew that there was any law against prog having a strong groove ! Is there....?

  not sure about a law, but it doesn't seem to help

Some cools songs for sure, but not a prog act to my mind.

^^Aaahhhh, Madison, Wisconsin. LOVE that town! Haven't been back for way too long.

Welcome to the Archives.

E

First of all I won't claim to be an expert despite having listened to what I think is prog since the 70's..   I never thought of SD as prog and I think most people have thought the same.  SD is my uncle's fav band and I'm famo;ar with all their albums and a fan as well.