Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all.
Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage") |
|
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 45678 11> |
| Author | ||||
Certif1ed 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
 Posted: September 02 2008 at 02:00 |
|||
The post read like Rocktopus was "attacking" me for having perfect pitch (something he knows but you don't) - my post was not insults but perfectly reasonable defensive opinion.
Anyway, this has little to do with the topic, which I fear is running out of steam.
The point was not whether you liked the piece of music I provided a link to or not, but whether you thought it Prog or not.
That nonsense about me "changing horses in midstream" is ludicrous - on "Inner Mounting Flame", McLaughlin clearly plays a lot of bluff that is unrelated to the music, harmonically, melodically and rhythmically.
If you consider that "playing with feeling", all well and good - I'm just pointing out the emporer's new clothes.
In "Eights is Enough", every single note is related - that doesn't mean you have to like it, but the craftsmanship is undeniable. It's the opposite of bluff. The "repetition" you're talking about is the minimalism I was talking about - short repeated rhythmic fragments altered so slightly that to the untutored ear it sounds like simple repetition, but it's not.
There's no widdly guitar playing either - what the hell are you talking about? It's a bit unadventurous, on the surface, if you're looking for flashy soloing - but that isn't the point. The guitar plays mainly with rhythmic fragments and textures - and I expect people like Hughes can identify the particular modes and time signatures involved.
Where it plays fast, every single note comes from arpeggios and scales that are in the current key - again, not fantastically imaginative on the surface, but it puts McLaughlin's pentatonic bluffing and pseudo-modal playing on "Inner Mounting Flame" (a great album spoiled by noodly nonsense) in the shade - and goes with the underlying music.
Spastic Ink mediocre rock?
That shows a lack of understanding of what they're doing. Please come back and debate this topic when you understand it a bit better.
Please also note that again, I am pointing out facts, not delivering a personal insult.
If you feel insulted by my post, feel free to complain to the admins - do not prolong the agony here, unless you wish to discuss the topic, as I will not respond.
|
||||
|
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
|
||||
 |
||||
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 20:36 |
|||
Right about what ? that you don't like prog metal ? Comparing them to who - General Schwartzkopf ? Rommel ? You can't be referring to a musical group, because I've yet to hear, read or learn of one that was put in charge of directing a musical trend, in this case - prog. If that is what you mean, then who are the generals ? If VDGG is not included, will Baldfriede agree with you ? I wouldn't if you dismissed Gentle Giant. I would agree to a classification of sorts of the top tier - King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, Moody Blues, Jethro Tull. But this status would be more reflective of their "mainstream" success than any claim to being better bands or having put out better music than say, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Strawbs, Harmonium or any of the Italian proggers. Just that they are better known than most other prog gods. Some are heavy, some are more melodic. Neither adjective indicates the level of "progness". And that is the main problem with Prog Metal. Anglagard can be heavy. Deep Purple could be agreed to be metal. But Dream Theater is just overly complex, pretentious too loud guitars/bass/drums/keyboards. And to repeat myself - if the whole prog metal scene musical acts took out the guitarist(s), and substituted a Hammond B3, or a Moog or Mellotron, their music would not face the same opposition. |
||||
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
||||
|
||||
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21257 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 16:08 |
|||
I listened to some of your tracks ... I liked all of them, and they surely didn't feel to me like they were too "scientific". Nevertheless, you always point out that opinions should be backed up by facts and reasoning ... I think I understand what you mean in the above post, but as Rocktopus' post shows you often come across as a "scientist".  |
||||
|
||||
|
Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 16:07 |
|||
I might be frustrated at times, but not about that (except of course I sometimes wish norwegian was the language we all had to use here and everywhere, and not english. But that's beside the point). That track reminded me of the sort of grooveless, soulless rock that that I often hear used in sportsprograms when they show highlights, or formula 1 cars that crashes etc.. on tv. Never knew there were actual bands making it. |
||||
|
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
||||
|
||||
|
trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008 Location: Lebanon Status: Offline Points: 934 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 16:06 |
|||
|
During my first visit to San Francisco ( Ca ) , i had the chance to visit the chinatown , downtown the city , at
the entrance there was a banner , ( a special one ) , it says , If You don't have a problems , this is a Problem !! My problem now is not the definition of Prog Metal , not even if the problem of prog metal , is prog rock or not , but my biggest & serious problem was , and still that i couldn't find any path to enjoy this kind of music . the difference between both categories is very clear to all of us , and i told yu before // MAYBE , we have the same father , but for sure we had different mothers , so leave it this way . Progarchives was meant to be our notice board , I love Opeth , Pain of Salvation , Dreamtheater , Symphony x , Therion , Pendragon , and even Cemetery of Screams , Hammerfall , Haggard , Metallica , Maiden , and many many others , but do not try to compare these soldiers to our GENERALS , and i believe that you know that i'm right . |
||||
|
Tracking Tracks of Rock
|
||||
|
||||
|
mr70s
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2008 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 121 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 16:01 |
|||
I didn't say everything was right - in fact, I err towards the primitive, as I learned all my art on the street. I think my gut feel is as at least as good as anyone else's - and you're welcome to your taste, but when it's provided unreasoned like that, I have to say it tastes horrible to me, and smacks highly of ignorance.
You are not "able to tell when everything's wrong", by the way - what a ridiculous thing to say!
Like everyone else, you're able to tell when you don't like something - but, from your response, you're unable to tell anybody WHY that should be. That must be very frustrating for you.
Did you listen to the piece of thrash that I improvised? That's pure gut feel - no science there.
[QUOTE]
Rocktopus delivered a straightforward, honest and quite amusing opinion of the track in question. I thought it unfortunate that Certified descended to personal insults. But of course, attack is the best form of defence.
 My opinion of this music is that it was sustained by cliched repetition. It was cold, sterile and heartless. It had no soul. The drums were badly programmed, and had the rich tonality of a Casio Tone Bank 100. The composition was devoid of interesting harmonic movement, and was clearly a basic platform upon which the 'widdly' guitarist could perform. Certified mentioned this in an earlier post :
Mahavishnu's "Inner Mounting Flame" is a good example, of a fusion album that's close to Prog, if you can ignore the widdly guitar.
Changing horses mid - stream always had it's risks......But is this music prog metal, or prog rock ? In my opinion it was neither. It is mediocre rock. Now there's a sub - genre !
|
||||
|
||||
|
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 13:56 |
|||
I hate to break it to you, but Metallica's quality albums have been remastered for the SECOND time - this time on MFSL, just like the high quality albums by the Beatles, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Eagles et al.
I don't recall Gentle Giant, Magma - or a great many other Prog acts ever having been remastered by this world-renowned, top quality company (I could be mistaken, of course - I don't know everything that's been put out by MFSL, who only bother with the best quality music for their legendary half-speed mastering process);
...not forgetting Megadeth, of course;
Edited by Certif1ed - September 01 2008 at 14:05 |
||||
|
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005 Location: Hungary Status: Offline Points: 2506 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 13:48 |
|||
|
Many classic metal albums(prog and non prog metal) have been already remastered, so we don't need to bother too much with this
|
||||
|
||||
|
sleeper
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: October 09 2005 Location: Entropia Status: Offline Points: 16449 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 13:11 |
|||
Seeing as metalhs been around in one form or another for 40 years, just as prog has, and Punk for 30, your statements are quite definitely wrong. More importantly, what does this have to do with pinning down a definition for Progressive Metal anyway? |
||||
|
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
|
||||
|
||||
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21257 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 12:00 |
|||
|
^ sorry, but how is (prog) metal any different? It exists on vinyl or CD, and remastered editions are being released all the time. Currently many classics from the 80s are even being re-released on vinyl.
|
||||
|
||||
|
trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008 Location: Lebanon Status: Offline Points: 934 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 11:43 |
|||
|
Your problem Metal people is that your stuff will never be remastered for the next generations , But , our stuff is available on vinyls , cd's , and has been remastered for our sake not yours . So leave the punk , new wave and heavy metal for yourselves , and leave the trash of the 60's & 70's for us . Even so , we don't mind if you use a spot in PA for your activities . After all we have the same father (which is Rock ) , but different mothers .
With all respect to those fellows , involved in this forum /// TracksToni . /// |
||||
|
Tracking Tracks of Rock
|
||||
|
||||
|
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 08:15 |
|||
I didn't say everything was right - in fact, I err towards the primitive, as I learned all my art on the street. I think my gut feel is as at least as good as anyone else's - and you're welcome to your taste, but when it's provided unreasoned like that, I have to say it tastes horrible to me, and smacks highly of ignorance.
You are not "able to tell when everything's wrong", by the way - what a ridiculous thing to say!
Like everyone else, you're able to tell when you don't like something - but, from your response, you're unable to tell anybody WHY that should be. That must be very frustrating for you.
Please do not mistake my ramblings for being purely scientific. Everything I write is based on gut feel or instinct, with reason merely playing a supporting role.
I am not a scientist, but an artist with a keen appreciation of science (but no qualifications in it - I flunked badly at school in scientific disciplines, whereas I'm a straight A* music student). I know very little of science and reasoning, I simply enjoy the art of both.
Did you listen to the piece of thrash that I improvised? That's pure gut feel - no science there.
|
||||
|
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 08:10 |
|||
Wow, no idea what this has to do with the topic at hand. "The Sufferer & the Witness was released on July 4, 2006 and peaked at number 10 on the Billboard 200 album chart" An album by punk band Rise Against. Punk never vanished and going by the fact a band like Rise Against whom aren't even a pop punk band (melodic hardcore) hit number 10, I think it's safe to say punk is pretty popular. There are punk bands regularly selling out venues now (and not small venues either), and have been since punk's inception. To say punk vanished is incorrect. Factually incorrect. Any punk fan knows it never died. Remember when New Wave hit and prog was struggling to survive? Same thing happened to metal. Funny now that prog is more popular again in the last decade and a bit and New Wave is quiet, that heavy metal is also more popular again than it was around the time of prog's fanbase number decline of the late 70s. Rant over.. get back on topic. |
||||
|
||||
|
||||
|
trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008 Location: Lebanon Status: Offline Points: 934 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 07:10 |
|||
|
Metal is now like Punk & new wave music in the early 80's , it's gonna vanish , one way or another , so if yu're convinced about the idea that said , metal is the heritage of Heavy Rock , press on your Fast Forward bottom , to witness in the future what will happen . and imho , as one of the eldest proggers in the world ,
history always wins . because it's fact , it happens . Cannot compare Psychadelic in the 60's , with Progressive of the 70's & 80's , with neo progressive of the 90's , with heavy metal , progressive metal ( if yu want ) , and Opera metal of this century !!!! |
||||
|
Tracking Tracks of Rock
|
||||
|
||||
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21257 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 06:38 |
|||
|
^ wonderful. I think that those two posts show the essence of the very problem we are facing with defining prog rock - or prog metal, or any of the other labels we're throwing around here: Reasoning/Science vs. Intuition/Taste. A dilemma which is impossible to solve - from either direction. One could come up with perfect reasoning, explaining that something is prog ... yet there will always be people who strongly disagree. They might acknowledge that the reasoning is sound, but still not accept it at all.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 06:30 |
|||
Everything might be right about this track for Certif1ed perfect pitch ears, but I'm glad my ears are more primitive, so I'm able to tell when everything's wrong. Horrible, pointless music. |
||||
|
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
||||
|
||||
|
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 06:25 |
|||
|
I like it... It sounds like Progressive Rock - it's more focussed on technique than "Classic" prog, possibly too much, but at the same time, it seems very musical, and everything seems to be there for a reason beyond mere prowess demonstration. It's based on minimal changes rather than dynamic overall development, and I can go back and hear stuff I missed on previous listens. It also makes it very clear that it's riff-based metal, but manages to produce an overall sound that is very different to, say, Killswitch Engage (or perhaps Fear Factory would be a better, more contemporary comparison).
That said, it doesn't really sound like something that's a "Classic", there's not an awful lot of band interplay - rather it's guitarist support (nothing wrong in that approach, it's a feature of a fair amount of Zappa's work) - and I do like lyrics with my Prog, so it's not in my top 100 or anything like that.
I think it proves beyond question that there IS such a thing as Prog Metal, and yes, I think it's a pretty good piece of music.
|
||||
|
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
|
||||
|
||||
|
mr70s
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2008 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 121 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 05:54 |
|||
Just curious, do you think this is a good piece of music ?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 03:41 |
|||
I'm not convinced that the reasoning is generally specific - some Prog fans seem to attribute greater prowess to, say, Rick Wakeman, than someone who is demonstrably more musically literate, virtuosic and creative.
 When I set out to define Prog Rock, I attempted to use a unique set of "measurements" - and I think that Prog Metal deserves the same. Any equation would only be a theory, not a definition, and the theory would require explanation - which would possibly serve as a reasonable definition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Progressive Metal is a natural development of Heavy Metal, a form of Rock Music that emerged from Psychedelic Rock in 1966-7.
The original Heavy Metal (as I see it) was a form of Psychedelic Rock that placed an emphasis on tight riffs and precision in soloing - it was a refined form of rock. As it developed, it became clear that it was an all-inclusive form of music, like Progressive Rock (and Rock as an overall genre), in that folk-like acoustic numbers, jazz-inspired and classical-inspired music would sit alongside heavy riffs that erred towards the dark and nihilistic side of the blues - and ultimately, kicked away the blues roots altogether.
At one end of the spectrum, musicians tended towards the showy, the classically inspired, the theatrical and a stretching of the old song format, adding decoration to elongated phrasing in a similar manner to classical composers (almost always confined to simplified Baroque or Classical constructs rather than earlier or later periods).
Keyboards and other "non-rock" instrumentation were quite rare in Metal, except at the "showy" end I described above, as were vocal harmonies.
The film "This is Spinal Tap", which I may stop quoting one day, highlights this really - the line between simple rock band and pretentious swaggerers claiming all manner of influence is an image many seem to have or Progressive Metal - but its interesting to see that exactly the same principles apply to Progressive Rock (at it's worst).
I think that "Progressive Metal" has always been there, with Progressive Rock - it's simply that many bands who actually played Metal have been re-christened into the Rock fraternity (whereas the music is actually BOTH), and it's the ones with most technical prowess that have earned the promotion so that Metal as a genre gets overlooked.
Contrary to popular opinion, Heavy Metal was not invented in the 1990s, and does not have to sound like Metallica (the album) or Killswitch Engage.
Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, AC/DC - all have been referred to as Heavy Metal - and yet how different the music is, to the point that 3 out of these 4 have been accepted as "Prog Related", but many would prefer to refer to them as Rock bands instead of Metal because of some wierd sort of stigma that Heavy Metal has ALWAYS had - like it's somehow a lesser form of music than anything else.
Yes, it's a simplified version of the ideal of Progressive Rock, but then so are most Progressive Rock bands - there are actually only a very few exceptions that live up to the ideal.
And this is exactly the same situation that Progressive Metal finds itself in - the main problem is that a large contingent haven't heard the progressive side (the Prog) in Heavy Metal, and hence deny even the possibility of its existence.
From what I've heard, it seems that Progressive Metal is doing what Metal has always done. It's working towards the ideals, and will never stop until it has attained them. Edited by Certif1ed - September 01 2008 at 03:46 |
||||
|
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
|
||||
|
||||
|
trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008 Location: Lebanon Status: Offline Points: 934 |
Posted: September 01 2008 at 01:11 |
|||
|
Reasonable way of thinking , a perfect arrangement of Questions & Answers . I agree with every single word in Debrewguy's reply . Things are very clear , and deserves a wide look , and a special reconsideration .
This point of view is in fact the nearest to my opinion regarding Progressive metal , sometimes things can be really funny & surprising !!!!!! The more you know , the less you need ///////// Tracks Toni |
||||
|
Tracking Tracks of Rock
|
||||
|
||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 45678 11> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
The REAL problem with prog-metal: is not prog-rock
Topic Options
mr70s wrote: