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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Progressive vs. Prog ... the revised theory
    Posted: August 24 2008 at 13:16
The recent additions and discussions (Metallica, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Steely Dan) got me thinking again about a theory that I developed a few months ago. On this website - and most others - only one criterium is used to describe the prog status of a band or album ... it's either less or more prog. Unfortunately reality is much more complex than that. The solution that I came up with attempts to make those discussions more manageable by introducing two different criteria:

1. Progressive Approach (is it truly progressive)
2. Prog Style (does it sound like established prog rock/metal music)

The idea is that for each album/artist we try to determine whether it meets those two criteria independently of each other, and then establish rules based on those findings.

Please have a look at this diagram:



The dashed line symbolises the threshold between what we could add as prog related at best (to the left of the dashed line) and the music we could add as prog (to the right of the dashed line). It is angled a bit because we tend to give the more progressive music a bonus ... of course some people would not do that. Some others might also decide to angle it even more, so that the most progressive music out there would not have to be in any prog style to be added. And of course some demand a threshold in the other domain (progressive approach) as well. BTW: The albums which I put in the diagram are only meant to be examples to illustrate the general principle ... of course you could put those bands anywhere you think they belong.

Now ... am I totally "out there" or can some of you see some sense in this?Big%20smile


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 24 2008 at 13:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 15:32
Not 'out there' at all. This diagram is an excellent tool in helping people see the factors involved in answering the age-old question "What is Prog?"

Of course, individuals will argue that the dashed lines should be at different angles or further away from the axes, or even that one axis or the other ought not to exist. But I think it expertly summarises the conditions that exist on PA at present.

Congratulations, Mike. I hope it enjoys a better fate than my venn diagram!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 15:49

Waste of time and energy...  all this effort to demonstrate what?

Is music, you should enjoy it whatever is prog or not.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 15:59
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

Not 'out there' at all. This diagram is an excellent tool in helping people see the factors involved in answering the age-old question "What is Prog?"

Of course, individuals will argue that the dashed lines should be at different angles or further away from the axes, or even that one axis or the other ought not to exist. But I think it expertly summarises the conditions that exist on PA at present.

Congratulations, Mike. I hope it enjoys a better fate than my venn diagram!


I thought you're Venn diagram was excellent, and this one is equally interesting. More knowledge and discussion concerning these matters will HOPEFULLY result in an ultimately smoother band evaluation progress for the site.

I know. Who am I kidding? Tongue


Edited by LinusW - August 24 2008 at 16:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 16:04
Originally posted by chaos8619 chaos8619 wrote:

Waste of time and energy...  all this effort to demonstrate what?

Is music, you should enjoy it whatever is prog or not.

 



No-one would argue with your second sentence, but I'd hope everyone would take issue with your first. We're human because we ask questions. How can such analysis be worthless?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 16:23
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

Originally posted by chaos8619 chaos8619 wrote:

Waste of time and energy...  all this effort to demonstrate what?

Is music, you should enjoy it whatever is prog or not.

 



No-one would argue with your second sentence, but I'd hope everyone would take issue with your first. We're human because we ask questions. How can such analysis be worthless?
 
Chances are Mr. Chaos won't be back..he only has 3 posts as it is..worthless n00b.
 
Anyway, I think it is a very interesting diagram..but how does MOP get stuck somewhere in the middle like that Confused? I don't really consider the album..or band either Progressive by style or it having a Progressive Approach.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 16:25
I don't know...

I think, no matter, whatever kind of diagram you draw, it all will remain too subjective anyway. First, everyone will argue indefintely, whether an album has a prog-touch or prog-style...  Then where to put an album what must not belong neither to prog nor to related? Into that small lower left angle? then we'll have to add abut 60% of world's recorded output I think.. Big%20smile

And... Hope Metalica will never be added.... Unless they turn Post Rock LOL

Anyway nice try to sum up the things, can agree in som of the aspects.


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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:04
Thanks for all the replies!

I'm glad that so far all the answers "fall into place" ... I anticipated most of the problems you mentioned. Of course this diagram will be unique for every person. They will place the bands/albums at different positions, and - as russellk pointed out - the boundaries between prog will vary from person to person. But if we could combine all the diagrams of all users, the result would probably be a good approximation of whether an artist should be listed as prog or not.

It's no secret that I have a website (yes micky et al., feel free to post the inevitable jokular comments Wink). There I have already implemented this idea in a very simple way:

Every user can assign among - all the other tags - those two values to the music. It's very simple ... values range from 0 to 10, and the "prog threshold" is at 6 (prog related is 4). That way, the system can automatically compile averages ... and if either of the two values reaches 6, the track/album/artist is listed as "prog", if it only reaches 4 then it is listed as prog-related. Anyone interested in helping me filling the database can simply tag some albums at progfreak.com, there's no formal procedure or anything. This could also help PA ... the data submitted at PF could be used here as well, if only as a more complex type of poll, to gather opinions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:10
This is a good theory. A lot of bands that get a lot of controversy seem to end up in the upper-left hand corner, which is why people don't think they belong here.
 
The only thing is that is there are bands like Meshuggah that sound NOTHING like Close to the Edge or Foxtrot and would belong only in the most upper-left part of the graph, past the dotted line, yet people don't have a problem with them here.
 
Also, if there's any band that sounds as proggy like CTTE or Foxtrot, but doesn't revolutionize music or do anything new to be progressive, they don't get very much debate, they seem to belong here just fine. So I beleive that the lines should definetely be at a much sharper angle.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:11
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:


Originally posted by chaos8619 chaos8619 wrote:

Waste of time and energy...  all this effort to demonstrate what?

Is music, you should enjoy it whatever is prog or not.


No-one would argue with your second sentence, but I'd hope everyone would take issue with your first. We're human because we ask questions. How can such analysis be worthless?

He didn't say it was "worthless" but rather a "[w]aste of time and energy"--subtle, perhaps, but distinct nevertheless.  In any case, I agree with the essence of his post.  Does such analysis (which no matter how thorough is doomed by its inherent arbitrariness) enhance the listening experience?  Does it help musicians to perfect their art?  It's doubtful that it'd facilitate either; in fact, it's unlikely that serious musicians even bother with such considerations.  More generally, some inquiries are worth investigation, others are not; but ultimately, it's a matter of individual priority--I don't perceive the value in this question, but maybe some do.

Also, it's a bit pretentious to christen this framework as a "theory."  I'll concede that it's explanatory (however inadequate), but does it have predictive power?  Does it have falsifiable claims?  Verifiable claims?  Testable claims?  Even if it does, any results are devalued by the arbitrary premises from which they might be deduced.


Edited by WinterLight - August 24 2008 at 17:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:13
I think it is an excellent idea, but a personal one - i.e. it is an idea we each can all use (probably already do if we stop & think about it too long....) but with our own parameters and limits - all of us carry our own personal model of what constitutes Prog Style and Prog Approach, where the boundaries lie and either whether the axis are linear or logarithmic. Therefore I don't think it cannot be used as a general panacea to all our ills, but it is one that each of us can adapt to our own needs.
 
It is the age-old (well, relatively age-old Wink) problem of how do you quantify and measure one band against another, objectively and subjectively?
What?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:19
Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

This is a good theory. A lot of bands that get a lot of controversy seem to end up in the upper-left hand corner, which is why people don't think they belong here.

Good point. There simply are those who care much more about the progressiveness than the actual style of the music, and those which care mostly about the style, or at least see a "compatible" style as an absolute "must". I guess it's impossible to combine those two points of views with a rigid genre system in which a band is either "prog", "prog-related/proto prog" or "not prog". There are basically two alternatives: Either add them and live with constant complaints from those who don't agree with the style, or don't add them and live with the constant complaints from those who don't mind the style.
 
The only thing is that is there are bands like Meshuggah that sound NOTHING like Close to the Edge or Foxtrot and would belong only in the most upper-left part of the graph, past the dotted line, yet people don't have a problem with them here.

I don't know ... there was major resistance when they got added. So far most of the controversial additions caused a lot of complaints shortly after the addition went through, but the forum quickly returned back to normal after a few weeks.
 
Also, if there's any band that sounds as proggy like CTTE or Foxtrot, but doesn't revolutionize music or do anything new to be progressive, they don't get very much debate, they seem to belong here just fine. So I beleive that the lines should definetely be at a much sharper angle.

This problem is addressed by how I implement it on my website ... I'm not asking people to draw those lines, I'm asking them where to place the music (left/right/top/bottom). That way all the assignments can be combined easily, as they already contain those subjective differences.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:23
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

Not 'out there' at all. This diagram is an excellent tool in helping people see the factors involved in answering the age-old question "What is Prog?"

Of course, individuals will argue that the dashed lines should be at different angles or further away from the axes, or even that one axis or the other ought not to exist. But I think it expertly summarises the conditions that exist on PA at present.

Congratulations, Mike. I hope it enjoys a better fate than my venn diagram!


I really liked your venn diagram ... but I guess it was a bit too technical, just like this idea. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:24
It's an interesting idea.  And any idea is better when there is a graph to accompany it.  So you get bonus points for that, because I like looking at pictures.

However, I'm not really sure that it really solves anything.  So instead of trying to classify everything using a binary scheme (prog or not prog), we need to decide if a band would fall into the intersection of the prog approach and prog style hyperplanes, which more or less amounts the same problem we had before.  Plus, as you point out, every person will have a different opinion as to where the two lines should be drawn.  And even if there were a consensus, there would still be arguments about artists that are close to the edge of the prog region (Miles Davis, Steely Dan, etc.) and there may not be a consensus as to which side they fall.  Now if you could come up with a universally accepted function whose domain is the set of all potential artists and whose range is a point in your Prog Style-Progressive Approach plane, then you may be on to something.  Then there would be no argument concerning where a band would fall in your diagram, and it would only be a matter of establishing accepted boundaries and seeing where everybody falls.  Sounds simple enough, now we just need somebody to work on that LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:32
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

This is a good theory. A lot of bands that get a lot of controversy seem to end up in the upper-left hand corner, which is why people don't think they belong here.

Good point. There simply are those who care much more about the progressiveness than the actual style of the music, and those which care mostly about the style, or at least see a "compatible" style as an absolute "must". I guess it's impossible to combine those two points of views with a rigid genre system in which a band is either "prog", "prog-related/proto prog" or "not prog". There are basically two alternatives: Either add them and live with constant complaints from those who don't agree with the style, or don't add them and live with the constant complaints from those who don't mind the style.
 
The only thing is that is there are bands like Meshuggah that sound NOTHING like Close to the Edge or Foxtrot and would belong only in the most upper-left part of the graph, past the dotted line, yet people don't have a problem with them here.

I don't know ... there was major resistance when they got added. So far most of the controversial additions caused a lot of complaints shortly after the addition went through, but the forum quickly returned back to normal after a few weeks.
 
Also, if there's any band that sounds as proggy like CTTE or Foxtrot, but doesn't revolutionize music or do anything new to be progressive, they don't get very much debate, they seem to belong here just fine. So I beleive that the lines should definetely be at a much sharper angle.

This problem is addressed by how I implement it on my website ... I'm not asking people to draw those lines, I'm asking them where to place the music (left/right/top/bottom). That way all the assignments can be combined easily, as they already contain those subjective differences.
 
Well I'm just saying. I'd put Meshuggah and Tool in the far upper left, past the dotted line, and I'd put plenty of power metal bands that aren't here a bit past the intersection, where they would be a valid entry here. However, 99% of the time I don't have a problem about which bands are or aren't here, so I'm just saying that the graph doesn't match how this forum seems to accept bands. Maybe instead of two straight lines, a hypberbola or a curved line would work better?
 
Just a suggestion as to how I see the graph working.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 05:15
Originally posted by chaos8619 chaos8619 wrote:

Waste of time and energy...  all this effort to demonstrate what?

Is music, you should enjoy it whatever is prog or not.


Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:


He didn't say it was "worthless" but rather a "[w]aste of time and energy"--subtle, perhaps, but distinct nevertheless.  In any case, I agree with the essence of his post.  Does such analysis (which no matter how thorough is doomed by its inherent arbitrariness) enhance the listening experience?  Does it help musicians to perfect their art?  It's doubtful that it'd facilitate either; in fact, it's unlikely that serious musicians even bother with such considerations.  More generally, some inquiries are worth investigation, others are not; but ultimately, it's a matter of individual priority--I don't perceive the value in this question, but maybe some do.

Also, it's a bit pretentious to christen this framework as a "theory."  I'll concede that it's explanatory (however inadequate), but does it have predictive power?  Does it have falsifiable claims?  Verifiable claims?  Testable claims?  Even if it does, any results are devalued by the arbitrary premises from which they might be deduced.


Nice to see some posts that completely miss the point of MikeEnRegalia's original post *OMG A TRACE OF SARCASMMZ* I'd be inclined to think chaos8619's post is trolling in this thread.
Whether or not this "enhances the listeners experience" or "helps musicians to perfect their art" is not of concern here.
It would be really nice when someone like MikeEnRegalia makes suggestions that can improve the site, that perhaps people actually help out instead of posting off topic stuff that just hinders progress.
If everyone had been following the recent controversial suggestions for PA addiitons, they might actually have a clue what MikeEnRegalia is trying to achieve here. I think MikeEnRegalia made it pretty clear this topic was inevitably linked to bands addition process.

Rant over, and let's lend Mike a hand here please.


Edited by HughesJB4 - August 25 2008 at 05:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 05:20
good thesis Mike, I'm not big on systems but this one is broad and flexible enough to be applied

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 05:46
I think at some level many of us already used this as a way of reconciling the sometimes widely different styles and aproaches of prog bands to facilitate their inclusion here, or at least what we as indaviduals consider prog. The one thing this has done is to put it into words and a visual exactly what we would consider for a band/album to be prog but it also highlites the fact that those dotted lines are going to move about and even change shape from person to person. Topofsm suggested that he'd put Meshuggah and Tool at the top of aproach but to the left of the dotted line in style, making it prog related rather than full blown prog,  but for me those dotted ines would touch the axis.


Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 06:57
^ let me give you an example of how this works by assigning tags:

We use a range from 0 to 10 for each tag (progressive approach, prog style), 4 is the threshold for related, 6 is the threshold for "full" (top/right sector).

Using this schema, I would submit the following values:

Meshuggah - Destroy Erase Improve: 6/4
Metallica - Master of Puppets: 6/2
Dream Theater - Images and Words: 6/8
Dream Theater - Octavarium: 4/8
Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime: 2/4
Genesis - Foxtrot: 10/10
Art Metal - Art Metal: 8/2
GY!BE - LYSFLATH: 6/2
Radiohead - Kid A: 8/2
Radiohead - OK Computer: 6/4
Iron Maiden - Powerslave: 2/4
Queen - Queen 2: 8/6
...

You disagree with those values? I hope so ... but the more people join in assigning the values, the more accurate the system can be in modelling the general opinion on the question.

Now imagine that we all would submit tags like that for our favorite albums (ideally: to all albums we know, as we listen to them for the purpose of reviewing). I think that the results would be very interesting, and it's not much work.

The cool thing is: As soon as those tags have been submitted, users could choose between different modes. For some - as you said above - a high progressive approach value is sufficient for listing something as prog, regardless of the style. For others the style is the most important thing. And there are those who demand both a progressive approach and a prog style. All that can be taken into account by the system.

Smile


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 08:18
The progressive approach is also more defined for the Tech/Extreme Metal, like Atheist, Cynic, Spastic Ink, Watchtower and maybe Voivod.

I think it's much more interesting that the Prog Metal approach which I personally find incredibly lame.

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