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Topic ClosedShould Metallica be in the forum?
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Poll Question: Should Metallica be in the forum?
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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:45
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

(...) i return to one of the PA guidelines to prog:
 
  • Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant.
    •  
     
    So Hetfield failes to meet this PA guide.
     
    Well you guys can't let me go, hahaha LOL 
     
    Just responding, out of politeness - after all, you did respond to my posts...
     
    Note the word "guide" Wink
     
    Don't be misled by elements - it's more important to consider elements as part of the whole, and literally hundreds of bands in the archives do not have particularly adventurous vocal styles.
     
    Ouch
     
    No need to feel hurt - it's true. So many Prog bands do not have "unusual vocal styles" or "multi-part harmonies" that we'd lose most of the archives if we cut out the bands that didn't have them.
     
    And by the way, you didn't post the original "repetitive arguments" - could you remind me of what they are, please, as I can't find them using the Search engine Big%20smile
     
    Better you going to find yourself...
     
    Would that be because you did not, in fact, read them in the first place, perhaps?
     
     
    Now you can respond to some real musical arguments - note that very few are repetitive, and go quite deep into music theory, so I don't expect you to manage all of them!
     
    The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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    Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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    Points: 3577     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:22
     
     
    Would that be because you did not, in fact, read them in the first place, perhaps?
     
     
    Now you can respond to some real musical arguments - note that very few are repetitive, and go quite deep into music theory, so I don't expect you to manage all of them!
     
    ohhh i do not know that thread, well... let see...Confused
     
     
    [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]




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    Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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    Points: 3577     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:23
    Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

     
     
     
    Now you can respond to some real musical arguments - note that very few are repetitive, and go quite deep into music theory, so I don't expect you to manage all of them!
     
     In fact i´m willing to do i'm studying right now!!Wink
     
    [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]




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    micky View Drop Down
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    Points: 46833     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 06:16
    well these results don't look too promising do they hahhaha.

    Been thinking on this.. not sure why I am bothering.  My post yesterday... I think made perfect sense, and one person bothered to answer it.  Thinking on it.. and I guess my position has changed after thinking on it.. and reading all the posts here.


    I think the way to solve all of this, is for M@X to relent on the 'no addition' stance.. but make clear.. that this is in the PMT's hands. Mark (Cert1fied) has gone to great lengths to explain that Metallica is not related.. they ARE Prog Metal, 3 PM albums is a CAREER for a great many groups hahahha.  . All this fuss... no prog RELATED addtion is worth all of it.  If Metallica is so important to be added.. they should be recognized for their music in their heyday.. like Genesis is.. not for what they became later or for what popular culture sees them as.  If people think Metallica did prog metal albums, they should be included in that category, however using Mike's idea of comparing Metallica to Iron Maiden...  IM WAS related to prog.. drawing upon the influences of prog in their music and were strong influences on the group.  Metallica.. was not.. and were as Gerald said.. progressive.. far more than IM...  if that is enough to be considered Prog Metal they should be added by that team.. if not.. they are no different from any group here that makes interesting music.. but does not make the cut here.. and is rejected.

    that is my advice M@X... if this addition is so important .. who better to judge than the PMT.  Let them decide if Metallica is to be included. 
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    MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Points: 21149     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 09:25
    I have many more things to say about this ... but I won't post any more of it.Dead
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    Points: 3577     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 10:43
    Mike about the musical boundaries, do not misunderstanding, it's a bout all that jazzWink




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    Points: 21149     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 11:13
    Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

    well these results don't look too promising do they hahhaha.

    Been thinking on this.. not sure why I am bothering.  My post yesterday... I think made perfect sense, and one person bothered to answer it.  Thinking on it.. and I guess my position has changed after thinking on it.. and reading all the posts here.


    I think the way to solve all of this, is for M@X to relent on the 'no addition' stance.. but make clear.. that this is in the PMT's hands. Mark (Cert1fied) has gone to great lengths to explain that Metallica is not related.. they ARE Prog Metal, 3 PM albums is a CAREER for a great many groups hahahha.  . All this fuss... no prog RELATED addtion is worth all of it.  If Metallica is so important to be added.. they should be recognized for their music in their heyday.. like Genesis is.. not for what they became later or for what popular culture sees them as.  If people think Metallica did prog metal albums, they should be included in that category, however using Mike's idea of comparing Metallica to Iron Maiden...  IM WAS related to prog.. drawing upon the influences of prog in their music and were strong influences on the group.  Metallica.. was not.. and were as Gerald said.. progressive.. far more than IM...  if that is enough to be considered Prog Metal they should be added by that team.. if not.. they are no different from any group here that makes interesting music.. but does not make the cut here.. and is rejected.

    that is my advice M@X... if this addition is so important .. who better to judge than the PMT.  Let them decide if Metallica is to be included. 


    Metallica were rejected by the PMT. They're not prog metal. Not even on MoP or AJFA.
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    The T View Drop Down
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    Points: 17493     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 14:58
    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

    well these results don't look too promising do they hahhaha.

    Been thinking on this.. not sure why I am bothering.  My post yesterday... I think made perfect sense, and one person bothered to answer it.  Thinking on it.. and I guess my position has changed after thinking on it.. and reading all the posts here.


    I think the way to solve all of this, is for M@X to relent on the 'no addition' stance.. but make clear.. that this is in the PMT's hands. Mark (Cert1fied) has gone to great lengths to explain that Metallica is not related.. they ARE Prog Metal, 3 PM albums is a CAREER for a great many groups hahahha.  . All this fuss... no prog RELATED addtion is worth all of it.  If Metallica is so important to be added.. they should be recognized for their music in their heyday.. like Genesis is.. not for what they became later or for what popular culture sees them as.  If people think Metallica did prog metal albums, they should be included in that category, however using Mike's idea of comparing Metallica to Iron Maiden...  IM WAS related to prog.. drawing upon the influences of prog in their music and were strong influences on the group.  Metallica.. was not.. and were as Gerald said.. progressive.. far more than IM...  if that is enough to be considered Prog Metal they should be added by that team.. if not.. they are no different from any group here that makes interesting music.. but does not make the cut here.. and is rejected.

    that is my advice M@X... if this addition is so important .. who better to judge than the PMT.  Let them decide if Metallica is to be included. 


    Metallica were rejected by the PMT. They're not prog metal. Not even on MoP or AJFA.
     
    I beg to disagree Mike. MoP and AJFA are MORE progressive-metal than many bands we have here (including but not limited to Blind Guardian, for example).
     
    For the sake of the peace on this site, I'd rather see them added to prog-related. But my opinion will always be that they, during two and a half albums, were full progressive-metal. And as Micky said, there are bands whose entire CAREERS are made of one or two albums...
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    Points: 17493     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 15:08
    As these threads have been closed, I'll copy these useful posts in here which may get lost in the other ones...
     
    Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

    Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

    Here's the Allmusic Review of And Justice For All:
    Review by Steve Huey

    The most immediately noticeable aspect of ...And Justice for All isn't Metallica's still-growing compositional sophistication or the apocalyptic lyrical portrait of a society in decay. It's the weird, bone-dry production. The guitars buzz thinly, the drums click more than pound, and Jason Newsted's bass is nearly inaudible. It's a shame that the cold, flat sound obscures some of the sonic details, because ...And Justice for All is Metallica's most complex, ambitious work; every song is an expanded suite, with only two of the nine tracks clocking in at under six minutes. It takes a while to sink in, but given time, ...And Justice for All reveals some of Metallica's best material. It also reveals the band's determination to pull out all the compositional stops, throwing in extra sections, odd-numbered time signatures, and dense webs of guitar arpeggios and harmonized leads. At times, it seems like they're doing it simply because they can; parts of the album lack direction and probably should have been trimmed for momentum's sake. Pacing-wise, the album again loosely follows the blueprint of Ride the Lightning, though not as closely as Master of Puppets. This time around, the fourth song — once again a ballad with a thrashy chorus and outro — gave the band one of the unlikeliest Top 40 singles in history; "One" was an instant metal classic, based on Dalton Trumbo's antiwar novel Johnny Got His Gun and climaxing with a pulverizing machine-gun imitation. As a whole, opinions on ...And Justice for All remain somewhat divided: some think it's a slightly flawed masterpiece and the pinnacle of Metallica's progressive years; others see it as bloated and overambitious. Either interpretation can be readily supported, but the band had clearly taken this direction as far as it could. The difficulty of reproducing these songs in concert eventually convinced Metallica that it was time for an overhaul.

    Well.. acording with this review Metallica can't reproduce live these songs???? interest discover....
     
    T, Cert and Winter, correct me i this guy is wrong...
     
    According to that review, AJFA is the "pinnacle of Metallica's progressive years".
     
     
     
    Originally posted by Certf1ed Certf1ed wrote:

     
    Priest's more recent output has certainly used thrash techniques - but the thrash techniques pretty much originated with Priest in the track "Exciter", which uses the fundamental alternate picked riffing ("thrashing" technique.
     
    Thrash carries dumb connotations, but really, it's a guitar technique the same as two-handed neck tapping (as pioneered by Steve Hackett and developed by Eddie Van Halen) or sweep and alternate-picked leads(shredding) - and so many metal bands use it (including "Progressive" ones like Dream Theater, Meshuggah and Opeth), that any "dumb" connotations with the word "thrash" are in the minds of those that have them.
     
    It's actually a Progressive technique, in the same way as the others I mentioned.
     
     
    Metallica are a thrash metal band in EXACTLY the same way that Dream Theater or Meshuggah are.
     
    They are also a Progressive Rock band in the same way.


    Edited by The T - August 20 2008 at 15:09
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    Points: 46833     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 15:34
    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

    well these results don't look too promising do they hahhaha.

    Been thinking on this.. not sure why I am bothering.  My post yesterday... I think made perfect sense, and one person bothered to answer it.  Thinking on it.. and I guess my position has changed after thinking on it.. and reading all the posts here.


    I think the way to solve all of this, is for M@X to relent on the 'no addition' stance.. but make clear.. that this is in the PMT's hands. Mark (Cert1fied) has gone to great lengths to explain that Metallica is not related.. they ARE Prog Metal, 3 PM albums is a CAREER for a great many groups hahahha.  . All this fuss... no prog RELATED addtion is worth all of it.  If Metallica is so important to be added.. they should be recognized for their music in their heyday.. like Genesis is.. not for what they became later or for what popular culture sees them as.  If people think Metallica did prog metal albums, they should be included in that category, however using Mike's idea of comparing Metallica to Iron Maiden...  IM WAS related to prog.. drawing upon the influences of prog in their music and were strong influences on the group.  Metallica.. was not.. and were as Gerald said.. progressive.. far more than IM...  if that is enough to be considered Prog Metal they should be added by that team.. if not.. they are no different from any group here that makes interesting music.. but does not make the cut here.. and is rejected.

    that is my advice M@X... if this addition is so important .. who better to judge than the PMT.  Let them decide if Metallica is to be included. 


    Metallica were rejected by the PMT. They're not prog metal. Not even on MoP or AJFA.


    then why prey tell did you vote yes for their inclusion IN prog-metal LOL

    or have you changed your mind.. which lord knows I've done.. but I'd sure  like to know what changed .. about albums released 20 +  years ago....
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    Points: 1170     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 15:52
    I think it's funny that everyone is so quick to trust AllMusic. Remember, guys, that this is the same website that labeled Tool as heavy metal, Atreyu as death/black metal, Scandinavian metal, and sludge metal
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    Points: 19535     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 16:29
    Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

    I think it's funny that everyone is so quick to trust AllMusic. Remember, guys, that this is the same website that labeled Tool as heavy metal, Atreyu as death/black metal, Scandinavian metal, and sludge metal
     
    Or the one that described TRIUMVIRAT as Finnish Prog "A La Focus" Dead
     
    It took them 6 months and several posts to confirm my sources for them to change this aberration.
     
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    Points: 17493     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 16:40
    Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

    I think it's funny that everyone is so quick to trust AllMusic. Remember, guys, that this is the same website that labeled Tool as heavy metal, Atreyu as death/black metal, Scandinavian metal, and sludge metal
     
    That is correct. But if people use the definitions in that website when it suits them, allow also the use of sdaid website for opposite views.
     
    Besides, none of the pro-metallica-in-PA members were the first to quote that website. Zafreth was, who most vehemently opposes the band here. So, it's just a matter of proving him wrong with HIS OWN WORDS.
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    Points: 66256     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 16:47
    Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

    Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

    I think it's funny that everyone is so quick to trust AllMusic. Remember, guys, that this is the same website that labeled Tool as heavy metal, Atreyu as death/black metal, Scandinavian metal, and sludge metal
     
    That is correct. But if people use the definitions in that website when it suits them, allow also the use of sdaid website for opposite views.
     
    Besides, none of the pro-metallica-in-PA members were the first to quote that website. Zafreth was, who most vehemently opposes the band here. So, it's just a matter of proving him wrong with HIS OWN WORDS.
     
    Actually T, to be accurate, I was the first to quote AllMusic for their definition of thrash.  Zafreth came back with the second definition.  As a music source I generally do trust AllMusic, although like with anything they are not 100% accurate.  My point of using that definition was basically to show that the idea of Metallica as a prog metal band wasn't some crackpot idea that Mike came up with in order to get a favorite band on the site, but that there is actually another independent source out there that mentions this in a similar vein. 
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    Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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    Points: 3577     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 16:49
    Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

    Besides, none of the pro-metallica-in-PA members were the first to quote that website. Zafreth was, who most vehemently opposes the band here. So, it's just a matter of proving him wrong with HIS OWN WORDS.
     
    Well T, provide me that i'm wrong with my own words...
     




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    Points: 11979     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 17:47
    Man oh man.

     If two such luminaries of the site as Mike and Cert propose Metallica for prog-related then it should be done. 
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    Points: 2551     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 18:00
    Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

    Man oh man.

     If two such luminaries of the site as Mike and Cert propose Metallica for prog-related then it should be done. 


    Don't mean to be rude...but why? for what reason should they be here? for their relation and influence on prog metal?
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    Points: 46833     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 18:06
    hahahha... after a breather.... the boxers come out of their corners...

    will check back in on this thread in another day or two LOL
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    Points: 2537     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 18:39
    If there was a genre "Proto Prog Metal" it would solve all the problems
    All the bands which were a strong influence on Progressive metal, Metallica, Malmsteen, Priest could all easily fit in there.
     
    But there isn´t, so, the only place for Metallica is in Prog Related.
    I voted Yes
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    Points: 46833     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 18:47
    Hey Greg.. nice to see you.... 

    proto prog metal wouldn't be a bad idea at all... or to bring up an idea that Raff had repeatedly mentioned... to my bewilderment.. still have no clue why it wasn't taken seriously...


    get rid of the limiting (1969) date of Proto Prog.. and make it 'influences ON prog'  and for Prog Related.... 'influenced BY prog'

    I believe we have smart people here.... which makes the silence on such an easy change..  yet one that would make tricky addtions.. so much easier. 

    Why it hasn't..  who knows.. apathy...  keeping to the 'status quo' instead of thinking how to improve what is already a great site.  No clue..
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