Should Metallica be in the forum?

Prog/non-prog lyrics? That's a new one!

While prog rock often featured philosophical and fantasy lyrics, there are plenty of examples of political subjects (see RIO) and even the old standards of love and girls. Lyrical subjects are too broad in prog to be able to say definitively 'those are prog lyrics, and those are not' - or why not have Peter, Paul and Mary here for 'Puff the Magic Deagon'? There's a bit of clutching at straws here, zafreth.

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I'm committing the cardinal sin here in commenting on this thread without reading all 11 pages of discussion, so flame away if I'm just repeating earlier comments.

As a long time metalhead, I have to say: no way is Metallica prog! I think of them as a band who took a variety of important ideas in metal, did them really well, and made them accessible to a larger public, rather than strictly innovating. Master of Puppets? What about Awaken the Guardian, or Energetic Disassembly?

And when did Melissa come out? 1983? We know Mercyful Fate was a big influence on Metallica, and probably a major influence in terms of their proggy elements... I'd much sooner support the addition of King Diamond and Mercyful Fate here than Metallica.

And by the time And Justice was out, you had Watchtower, Anacrusis, Mekong Delta, among lots of others playing more technical thrash than Metallica.

Lots of bands were playing faster, harder, and longer, before Metallica, but Metallica just did it really well, and became very popular. Good for them, but don't muddy the waters of metal history. They're no Miles Davis!

zafreth wrote: Here's an extract of Ride The Lighting... What a wonderful message leaves to us!! it's not far from Slayer's Die By The Sword... Actually, it's quite far from it.  Despite his support of the death penalty, Hetfield tries to write from perspective of someone who's been convicted wrongfully and sentenced to death.  In the end, though, we see that it's only a dream.  It's not Shakespeare, but then again not much is.  In the end, I don't see any connection to "Die by the Sword."   Continue with the lyrics analysis, found another song that is Heavy Metal and that is Creeping Death... Here's is more much elaborate song in the theme a bible passage in a popular way to sing,but we'll see another's similar group efforts. Again, your analysis misses the point somewhat.  "Creeping Death" is about the "historical" origin of the Jewish feast of Passover.  Although Hetfield didn't construct a Homerian epic here, he seems to have approached with some thoughtfulness, and at the very least, avoided the puerile, cinematic Satanism penned by Hanneman. We move to see some Anthrax Lyrics... Well the similitaries are very obvious, don't you think? No, I don't think that there are any similarities here.  Care to specify what these similarities are?  In any case, I don't think that the cited lyrics are terrible. Moving to Fight Fire With Fire has a simple lyric approach see: Simple, but effective.  The message is clear: mankind needs to dispense with the "eye for an eye" ethic, especially in view of modern WMDs.   We move to Metalica's From Whom The Bell Tolls lyric... Wow!!! fits perflectly don't you think?, as a comment i see that Anthrax was in a Metallica- way to write lyrics!!! No, I don't think it "fits perfectly."  Ultimately, you're providing evidence (under the assumption that your interpretations are correct, which they are not) that undermines your argument.  So, other metal bands drew lyrical inspiration from Metallica?  Sounds as if Metallica were vanguards, as if they were progressing music.   And fore sure those lyrics are plain Heavy Metal efforts, not a progressive one... What would make the lyrics progressive?  Pretentious, pseudo-intellectual ramblings?  Hammill has been criticized of this.  Or perhaps Gabriel's self-conscious silliness?  Anderson's indecipherable enigmas?  Peart's hymns to Rand?  Water's naked simplicity (even he confesses he does not know how he got away with "Breathe")?  The fact is I get something from all of these lyricists.  My point is that if one wants to critical, one can find something about which to be critical no matter how substantive or hairsplitting the criticism is.   As an example check overall Grunge lyrics, especially of Soundgarden and PJ... and compare to the lasts ones... as they do not being progressive. Are you referring to "Fade to Black"?  I hope you've never felt that state of mind expressed in the song, but many people have.  According to Metallica, they've received quite a few letters from fans who've written that the song saved their lives, prevented their imminent suicide.  At the risk of appearing mawkish, it's a haunting and dark, yet ultimately beautiful and triumphant song, aurally evocative of the rollercoaster of emotions one feels in those circumstances.  Musically it is not only beyond reproach but it was a daring move to introduce acoustic guitar, and for that matter space, into a thrash record.  Again, sounds like enlarging musical boundaries to me.

zafreth wrote: Your opinion as biased towards Metallica is perflectly clear... Preference isn't equivalent to bias.  As I previously pointed out, I like a lot of the other thrash bands yet I don't see much justification to include in the archives.  In the case of Metallica, though, there is a cogent argument--which has been repeated too many times already by many others, myself included--for their inclusion.  and asumming that you have to cut my original post to point partially the things that fit with the adition to Metallica to PA... I didn't do anything deceptive or misleading; I just didn't see the point in reposting the lyrics--they're right on the same page in the thread.  Moreover, my use of ellipses should relieve any suspicion of subterfuge. Notice, though, that you (and, to be fair, others too) haven't countered any of our points.  You've simply dismissed them and moved on to your next comment. well i prefer to listen to the lyricist that you pointed out... as simply as is. That's your choice.  Like I said, I enjoy all of those lyricists more or less.  My point was that it's easier to be critical than to find value in something. Not entirely irrelevant is Paul Simon's remark that "the lyrics of pop songs are so banal that if you show a spark of intelligence, they call you a poet.  And if you say you're not a poet, then people think you're putting yourself down.  But the people who call you a poet are people who never read poetry."  Ultimately, and despite certain elitist objections, progressive rock (and for that matter, jazz too) is really just clever pop music.  If you want serious music, then visit classical.net instead.

Easy Livin wrote: Just a reminder that M@x has said no to Metallica being added at all.

zafreth wrote: (...) i return to one of the PA guidelines to prog:   Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant.     So Hetfield failes to meet this PA guide.

Certif1ed wrote: zafreth wrote: (...) i return to one of the PA guidelines to prog:   Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant.     So Hetfield failes to meet this PA guide.   Well you guys can't let me go, hahaha   Note the word "guide"   Don't be misled by elements - it's more important to consider elements as part of the whole, and literally hundreds of bands in the archives do not have particularly adventurous vocal styles.     And by the way, you didn't post the original "repetitive arguments" - could you remind me of what they are, please, as I can't find them using the Search engine    Better you going to find yourself...

WinterLight wrote: zafreth wrote: Not entirely irrelevant is Paul Simon's remark that "the lyrics of pop songs are so banal that if you show a spark of intelligence, they call you a poet.  And if you say you're not a poet, then people think you're putting yourself down.  But the people who call you a poet are people who never read poetry."  Ultimately, and despite certain elitist objections, progressive rock (and for that matter, jazz too) is really just clever pop music.  If you want serious music, then visit classical.net instead. No i didn't say that i want serious music and i agree with this quote.

zafreth wrote: And please tell me what is the "correct" interpretation?? You only said that my interpretation aren't correct but no evidence of what is wrong with my interpretation.

Actually, I did give you the correct (and by "correct" I mean the Hetfield's intended meaning, which has been documented elsewhere) to "Ride the Lightning", "Creeping Death", and "Fight Fire with Fire."  I admit that I did not bother explicating "For Whom the Bell Tolls" and "Fade to Black," but I'll do it now.  The former is clearly based on Hemmingway's novel of the same name--Hetfield has written a number of songs based on classic literature.  I hinted at the meaning of "Fade to Black" yet I'll specify it here: it discusses the range of emotions one experiences that eventually lead to suicidal thoughts, and closes (in psychological accuracy) in peaceful resolve once the decision has been made.