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Topic ClosedShould Metallica be in the forum?

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Poll Question: Should Metallica be in the forum?
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 02:46
The point made by Cert in the older thread

Metallica were at the forefront, and "Master Of Puppets" was the very first of its kind - there was nothing like it before, or even at the time. Anyone that knows their metal history, as Cert does, would definitely agree with this pointAJFA was easily more progressive than what most of the metal scene, let alone thrash metal, were doing at the time.

Exodus: Concentrated on riffs As did Megadeth really and not a prog trait obviously

Slayer: Absolutely revolutionary, but confined to the narrow area they chose to explore - and it's a good job they did, because they were/are fantastic at what they do. "Reign in Blood" is still a benchmark that has never been surpassed - but it ain't prog! Exactly

Anthrax - you're making me laugh! Indeed Cert.

Kreator - don't confuse technical with progressive. Kreator were never progressive. Fabulous technical thrash though.   Although yes, technical riffs, most the of soloing was very unimpressive, based around many tremolo picked lines for some of the albums, to hide the lack of alternate picking ability. Arguably, the peak of technical thrash around that period, was Megadeth's Rust In Peace, which featured many tempo changes, a few songs with odd time signatures, and of course Marty Friedman's lead guitar style which contained virtuosity perhaps only matched by fellow Bay Area Thrashers. Testament (Alex Skolnick, guitarist in question, with superb technical ability). Sorry Kirk, but your playing is not quite up to that levelTongue

Sodom - Sod 'em! Haven't really heard them enough, but my understanding is that they were one of the more simple of the thrash bands

And of coures, that also helps serve to make a point that the other thrash bands are not justified for inclusion.

I think it serves to make a point, if you want to understand why Metallica is just progressive as many 'prog' artists, you have to listen to it in the correct context, and you absolutely must, know heavy metal history. We keep forgetting Voivod, one the other pioneers of combining thrash with prog to make progressive metal. Listen to them as well, and that will help to make people see how Metallica were truly progressive.


Hell, I wont die if Metallica aren't up for inclusion, because we still have Voivod, Queensryche and Fates Warning in here, but obviously I maintain my position as Metallica being one of the first prog metal bands.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 03:07
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ but you don't have to be accomplished at classical to do progressive metal, that's like saying Floyd weren't progressive cause Gilmour couldn't shred and Rick Wright was dull compared to Wakeman, or that Rush aren't progressive cause they come from a hard rock background   ..and many artist don't consider themselves 'prog',  never stopped us before Tongue



Clap

hahah.. yeah... it seems like a sport to see who can distance themselves from ....errr..and grrrr.. being LABELED (have I mentioned today how much I hate that word LOL) prog.


Well, for the humor of it, Rob Fripp does stand as the "God' of prog rock who disagreed with making Prog Rock in the first place. LOL

And right now he must be shocked that both his and Crimson's music is called...Eclectic Prog.
Or, well, not at all shocked, but still thinking we're morons.

I actually stepped in some prog tiny forum after EP was created and read a KC fan impersonating Fripp: "I'm making Eclectic Prog LOL jajaja" LOL


Edited by Ricochet - August 14 2008 at 03:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 03:27
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

[

I actually stepped in some prog tiny forum...
 
Shocked
 
I hope it came off your shoes LOL
 
 
Originally posted by JethroZappa JethroZappa wrote:

Should Metallica be in the forum?

No

I think they are not even close to the word "prog", and I don't see particoular musicianship in their albums either...
 
Why and why?
 
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Well Lars have a good "punch" for Heavy Metal Standards, but for prog standards... he might look like 8 year old drumming between prog giants of the stature of Brufford or Portnoy.
 
 
 
Without Lars, Portnoy may well never have had a band like Dream Theater to play for. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 07:22
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Why and why?
 


Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.

As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 07:36
^ 1. those albums aren't Hard Rock at all. Metallica only ventured into Hard Rock territory after the "Black Album".

2. What do Hammetts qualities as a live performer have to do with them being progressive or not?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 08:52
Originally posted by JethroZappa JethroZappa wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Why and why?
 


Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.

As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?


They were firmly a thrash metal band until 1991. Absolutely NO hard rock there,
And so what, there are probably heaps of prog guitarists with poor intonation, bad vibrato and sloppy playing.
Heck, Led Zeppelin are in the archives, yet Jimmy Page is extremely sloppy, and some guitarists would leave mid concert because they just couldn't listen to his sloppy playing.
People keep asking for Hendrix's inclusion. I love Hendrix, but some of his stuff I refuse to listen to because his playing is a complete slopfest.
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
Prog still isn't and wasn't always about sheer technical ability. It's a feature of prog, to some extent, but nowhere does it say you cannot be a prog musician if your chops aren't up to scratch.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 08:57
David Gilmour can't/doesn't sweep pick ... no reason to throw Pink Floyd out either.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 09:05
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:


Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?


Sorry but this does not make sense. I just answered a question, I got asked why I thought they weren't particoular good musicians. The reason for why I do think they should not be on progarchives is that I   think they are not prog at all. Totally different kind of music, not even close to prog.

Read the full post please.

As much as I love Led Zeppelin I can agree with you.


And no, Zappa wasn't sloppy. NEVER :P
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 09:19
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

[Heck, Led Zeppelin are in the archives, yet Jimmy Page is extremely sloppy, and some guitarists would leave mid concert because they just couldn't listen to his sloppy playing.
People keep asking for Hendrix's inclusion. I love Hendrix, but some of his stuff I refuse to listen to because his playing is a complete slopfest.
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
Prog still isn't and wasn't always about sheer technical ability. It's a feature of prog, to some extent, but nowhere does it say you cannot be a prog musician if your chops aren't up to scratch.
You are right about Page. His wizardry does not come from his chops but from his dynamics and his ability to effortlessly go from beautiful Bert Jansch- inspired acoustic playing to heavy buzz saw riffing. As for Hendrix, his live playing left a lot to be desired generally, especially how often his guitar would go out of tune. However,  his performance of "Machine Gun" from the New Year's Eve concert at the Fillmore East is nothing short of brilliant as was his performance of "Hear My Train a Comin'" from the Isle of Wight show.  I'm still on the fence with regard to his inclusion in the archives. You are also right about Zappa and Vai. Even the most technical players get sloppy at times. I'm sure that Paganini hit a bum note at one time or another. Prog to me is only partly about technical ability, but it is certainly not about technical perfection.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 10:15
Originally posted by JethroZappa JethroZappa wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Why and why?
 


Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.

As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?
 
I'm sorry, but saying their music is not prog does not make it that way - that's only your opinion. To many others, myself included, it IS Prog. BTW, Metal Militia is not an instrumental - and it's not supposed to be pleasant as far as I can tell, but it's a very progressive piece - name another that sounds like it from 1983?
 
The live environment is not how we're judging them, just the recorded output - and the 3 specific albums have already been named - although I hold a candle for "Kill 'Em All" as the first of its kind (after Diamond Head's "Lighting For the Nations", which is also pure Progressive Metal, and "Canterbury", which is 50% stunning and 50% dross).
 
The live environment is certainly the one for judging musician skills - and when I saw them in 1986, they were stunning. Cliff Burton's bass soloing particularly was astonishing - some of his early work can be found on YouTube, and that gives a good idea.
 
You need an argument, my friend - not a polar opinion Wink
 
 
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 (...)  How much does Metallica fuse genres and turn music inside and out?
 
There's an interesting (and long) discussion...
 
Quite a lot is the short answer LOL


Edited by Certif1ed - August 14 2008 at 10:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 11:49
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by JethroZappa JethroZappa wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Why and why?
 


Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.

As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?


They were firmly a thrash metal band until 1991. Absolutely NO hard rock there,
And so what, there are probably heaps of prog guitarists with poor intonation, bad vibrato and sloppy playing.
Heck, Led Zeppelin are in the archives, yet Jimmy Page is extremely sloppy, and some guitarists would leave mid concert because they just couldn't listen to his sloppy playing.
People keep asking for Hendrix's inclusion. I love Hendrix, but some of his stuff I refuse to listen to because his playing is a complete slopfest.
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
Prog still isn't and wasn't always about sheer technical ability. It's a feature of prog, to some extent, but nowhere does it say you cannot be a prog musician if your chops aren't up to scratch.
 
What you mean with "Sloppy", sorry but do not understand what's your point about "Slopiness"




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 11:53
^ sloppy usually means bad timing and/or intonation. Unfortunately some people confuse it with feeling ... LOL


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 14 2008 at 11:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 12:24
[/QUOTE]
 
Without Lars, Portnoy may well never have had a band like Dream Theater to play for. Wink
[/QUOTE]
 
maybe and maybe not, there are others fine trash drummers and even Better than Lars.
 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 12:26
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ sloppy usually means bad timing and/or intonation. Unfortunately some people confuse it with feeling ... LOL
 
Thanks for the definition, wish that prog could be as simple to define....Big%20smile




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 14:10
The live environment is certainly the one for judging musician skills - and when I saw them in 1986, they were stunning. Cliff Burton's bass soloing particularly was astonishing - some of his early work can be found on YouTube, and that gives a good idea.
 
You need an argument, my friend - not a polar opinion Wink
 
 
Jaco Pastorius Bass soloing are far more atonishing, and he is not in PA LOL
 
 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 14:23
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

The live environment is certainly the one for judging musician skills...


Not really.  I provide the counterexample of Steely Dan.  The fact is, though, that Metallica are great, but somewhat sloppy (at least compared to their work in the studio), in concert.

Notwithstanding this mild criticism, I believe, for reasons already articulated by others in this thread, that Metallica deserve placement in the forum, in particular under Progressive Metal.  Additionally, I think that an argument (albeit not an exceptionally strong one) can be made in support of inducting into the archives the three other "big four" thrash bands.


Edited by WinterLight - August 14 2008 at 15:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:13
Winter Light, the quote is not from me is from Certif1ed.
 
Yeah you are quite right about SD.
 
Of course if Metallica have made they way to PA, why not the other three?? i would find any traces of progressive rock in all his albums.
 
If we going to justify that every band on the Earth has progressive traces, then maybe we open the Pandorax Box.
 
   




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:32
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:


Winter Light, the quote is not from me is from Certif1ed.

I apologize for my carelessness.


Of course if Metallica have made they way to PA, why not the other three??

I didn't say "no" to the other three, but only that the argument for their inclusion is weaker than the one for Metallica's inclusion, especially in the cases of Slayer and Anthrax.


 i would find any traces of progressive rock in all his albums.

I don't understand what you mean.

 
If we going to justify that every band on the Earth has progressive traces, then maybe we open the Pandorax Box.

It's not that Metallica has "progressive traces" but rather that they are progressive.


Edited by WinterLight - August 14 2008 at 15:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:48
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:


Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?


Zappa was never sloppy. I dont know any recordings (and i have basically all of them) where he plays sloppy. Zappa liked the tension of playing notes not necessarily in the "same" key. Jazz musicians do this all the time. But he resolved the notes. Other than Zappa and his first album, I havent heard enough Steve Vai, but i know he's not sloppy. I want to see you do what he does.

I see a lot of people critiquing other players, but i dont see them on music sites being discussed, or releasing albums and going on tour (myself included Cry)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2008 at 20:32
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

 

 
 
If we going to justify that every band on the Earth has progressive traces, then maybe we open the Pandorax Box.

It's not that Metallica has "progressive traces" but rather that they are progressive.
 
If they maybe were progressive then, that criteria would apply to many many bands, and specific to the jazz progressive scene:
 
John Coltrane.
Gabor Szabo
Hubert Laws
Sam Williams
Peter Brozztman
Ken Vandermark
Paraoh Sanders
and many more....
 
Also as a note when you enter a music record store you donīt find Metallica in the progressive section by the way.LOL
 
And i bet you that in any record store in the world
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




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