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WinterLight 
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Joined: June 09 2008
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 Posted: August 15 2008 at 22:32 |
 zafreth wrote:
If they maybe were progressive then, that criteria would apply to many many bands...
Not sure what you're trying to say.
Also as a note when you enter a music record store you donīt find Metallica in the progressive section by the way.
For transparent reasons, that particular argument carries no weight.
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Alberto Muņoz
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Posted: August 15 2008 at 20:32 |
WinterLight wrote:
zafreth wrote:
If we going to justify that every band on the Earth has progressive traces, then maybe we open the Pandorax Box.
It's not that Metallica has "progressive traces" but rather that they are progressive.
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If they maybe were progressive then, that criteria would apply to many many bands, and specific to the jazz progressive scene:
John Coltrane.
Gabor Szabo
Hubert Laws
Sam Williams
Peter Brozztman
Ken Vandermark
Paraoh Sanders
and many more....
Also as a note when you enter a music record store you donīt find Metallica in the progressive section by the way. 
And i bet you that in any record store in the world
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darkshade
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:48 |
HughesJB4 wrote:
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
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Zappa was never sloppy. I dont know any recordings (and i have basically all of them) where he plays sloppy. Zappa liked the tension of playing notes not necessarily in the "same" key. Jazz musicians do this all the time. But he resolved the notes. Other than Zappa and his first album, I havent heard enough Steve Vai, but i know he's not sloppy. I want to see you do what he does. I see a lot of people critiquing other players, but i dont see them on music sites being discussed, or releasing albums and going on tour (myself included  )
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WinterLight
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Points: 424
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:32 |
zafreth wrote:
Winter Light, the quote is not from me is from Certif1ed.
I apologize for my carelessness.
Of course if Metallica have made they way to PA, why not the
other three??
I didn't say "no" to the other three, but only that the argument for their inclusion is weaker than the one for Metallica's inclusion, especially in the cases of Slayer and Anthrax.
i would find any traces of progressive rock in all his
albums.
I don't understand what you mean.
If we going to justify that every band on the Earth has progressive traces, then maybe we open the Pandorax Box.
It's not that Metallica has "progressive traces" but rather that they are progressive.
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Edited by WinterLight - August 14 2008 at 15:38
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Alberto Muņoz
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:13 |
Winter Light, the quote is not from me is from Certif1ed.
Yeah you are quite right about SD.
Of course if Metallica have made they way to PA, why not the other three?? i would find any traces of progressive rock in all his albums.
If we going to justify that every band on the Earth has progressive traces, then maybe we open the Pandorax Box.
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WinterLight
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 14:23 |
Certif1ed wrote:
The live environment is certainly the one for judging musician skills...
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Not really. I provide the counterexample of Steely Dan. The fact is, though, that Metallica are great, but somewhat sloppy (at least compared to their work in the studio), in concert. Notwithstanding this mild criticism, I believe, for reasons already articulated by others in this thread, that Metallica deserve placement in the forum, in particular under Progressive Metal. Additionally, I think that an argument (albeit not an exceptionally strong one) can be made in support of inducting into the archives the three other "big four" thrash bands.
Edited by WinterLight - August 14 2008 at 15:32
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Alberto Muņoz
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 14:10 |
The live environment is certainly the one for judging musician skills - and when I saw them in 1986, they were stunning. Cliff Burton's bass soloing particularly was astonishing - some of his early work can be found on YouTube, and that gives a good idea.
You need an argument, my friend - not a polar opinion 
Jaco Pastorius Bass soloing are far more atonishing, and he is not in PA
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Alberto Muņoz
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 12:26 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ sloppy usually means bad timing and/or intonation. Unfortunately some people confuse it with feeling ... 
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Thanks for the definition, wish that prog could be as simple to define.... 
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Alberto Muņoz
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 12:24 |
[/QUOTE]
Without Lars, Portnoy may well never have had a band like Dream Theater to play for.  [/QUOTE]
maybe and maybe not, there are others fine trash drummers and even Better than Lars.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 11:53 |
^ sloppy usually means bad timing and/or intonation. Unfortunately some people confuse it with feeling ...
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 14 2008 at 11:54
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Alberto Muņoz
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 11:49 |
HughesJB4 wrote:
JethroZappa wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Why and why?
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Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.
As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?
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They were firmly a thrash metal band until 1991. Absolutely NO hard rock there,
And so what, there are probably heaps of prog guitarists with poor intonation, bad vibrato and sloppy playing.
Heck, Led Zeppelin are in the archives, yet Jimmy Page is extremely sloppy, and some guitarists would leave mid concert because they just couldn't listen to his sloppy playing.
People keep asking for Hendrix's inclusion. I love Hendrix, but some of his stuff I refuse to listen to because his playing is a complete slopfest.
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
Prog still isn't and wasn't always about sheer technical ability. It's a feature of prog, to some extent, but nowhere does it say you cannot be a prog musician if your chops aren't up to scratch.
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What you mean with "Sloppy", sorry but do not understand what's your point about "Slopiness"
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Certif1ed
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 10:15 |
JethroZappa wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Why and why?
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Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.
As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?
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I'm sorry, but saying their music is not prog does not make it that way - that's only your opinion. To many others, myself included, it IS Prog. BTW, Metal Militia is not an instrumental - and it's not supposed to be pleasant as far as I can tell, but it's a very progressive piece - name another that sounds like it from 1983?
The live environment is not how we're judging them, just the recorded output - and the 3 specific albums have already been named - although I hold a candle for "Kill 'Em All" as the first of its kind (after Diamond Head's "Lighting For the Nations", which is also pure Progressive Metal, and "Canterbury", which is 50% stunning and 50% dross).
The live environment is certainly the one for judging musician skills - and when I saw them in 1986, they were stunning. Cliff Burton's bass soloing particularly was astonishing - some of his early work can be found on YouTube, and that gives a good idea.
You need an argument, my friend - not a polar opinion
Logan wrote:
(...) How much does Metallica fuse genres and turn music inside and out?
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There's an interesting (and long) discussion...
Quite a lot is the short answer
Edited by Certif1ed - August 14 2008 at 10:21
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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jimidom
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Joined: August 02 2007
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 09:19 |
HughesJB4 wrote:
[Heck, Led Zeppelin are in the archives, yet Jimmy Page is extremely sloppy, and some guitarists would leave mid concert because they just couldn't listen to his sloppy playing.
People keep asking for Hendrix's inclusion. I love Hendrix, but some of his stuff I refuse to listen to because his playing is a complete slopfest.
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
Prog still isn't and wasn't always about sheer technical ability. It's a feature of prog, to some extent, but nowhere does it say you cannot be a prog musician if your chops aren't up to scratch.
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You are right about Page. His wizardry does not come from his chops but from his dynamics and his ability to effortlessly go from beautiful Bert Jansch- inspired acoustic playing to heavy buzz saw riffing. As for Hendrix, his live playing left a lot to be desired generally, especially how often his guitar would go out of tune. However, his performance of "Machine Gun" from the New Year's Eve concert at the Fillmore East is nothing short of brilliant as was his performance of "Hear My Train a Comin'" from the Isle of Wight show. I'm still on the fence with regard to his inclusion in the archives. You are also right about Zappa and Vai. Even the most technical players get sloppy at times. I'm sure that Paganini hit a bum note at one time or another. Prog to me is only partly about technical ability, but it is certainly not about technical perfection.
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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JethroZappa
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 09:05 |
HughesJB4 wrote:
Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we?
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Sorry but this does not make sense. I just answered a question, I got asked why I thought they weren't particoular good musicians. The reason for why I do think they should not be on progarchives is that I think they are not prog at all. Totally different kind of music, not even close to prog. Read the full post please. As much as I love Led Zeppelin I can agree with you. And no, Zappa wasn't sloppy. NEVER :P
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"I hope they all get an indigestion, I hope, hope, hope, hope, hope!"
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 08:57 |
David Gilmour can't/doesn't sweep pick ... no reason to throw Pink Floyd out either.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 08:52 |
JethroZappa wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Why and why?
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Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog.
As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?
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They were firmly a thrash metal band until 1991. Absolutely NO hard rock there, And so what, there are probably heaps of prog guitarists with poor intonation, bad vibrato and sloppy playing. Heck, Led Zeppelin are in the archives, yet Jimmy Page is extremely sloppy, and some guitarists would leave mid concert because they just couldn't listen to his sloppy playing. People keep asking for Hendrix's inclusion. I love Hendrix, but some of his stuff I refuse to listen to because his playing is a complete slopfest. Frank Zappa had some sloppy times, and his sideman Steve Vai has some pretty sloppy sweep picking chops (although in other areas of technique, Vai is pretty much spot on). So let's take Zappa out of the archives shall we? Prog still isn't and wasn't always about sheer technical ability. It's a feature of prog, to some extent, but nowhere does it say you cannot be a prog musician if your chops aren't up to scratch.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 07:36 |
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^ 1. those albums aren't Hard Rock at all. Metallica only ventured into Hard Rock territory after the "Black Album".
2. What do Hammetts qualities as a live performer have to do with them being progressive or not?
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JethroZappa
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 07:22 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Why and why?
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Because their music is not prog. You can tell they are Metal, Hard Rock, whatever you want but they are not prog, absolutely. Instrumentals like "Metal Militia", may be pleasant, but not prog. As musician skills, well, the solos are all the same, and have you ever heard mr. Hammett doing the "One" solo in concert correctly?
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"I hope they all get an indigestion, I hope, hope, hope, hope, hope!"
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Certif1ed
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 03:27 |
Ricochet wrote:
[
I actually stepped in some prog tiny forum... |
I hope it came off your shoes
JethroZappa wrote:
Should Metallica be in the forum?
No
I think they are not even close to the word "prog", and I don't see particoular musicianship in their albums either...
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Why and why?
zafreth wrote:
Well Lars have a good "punch" for Heavy Metal Standards, but for prog standards... he might look like 8 year old drumming between prog giants of the stature of Brufford or Portnoy.
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Without Lars, Portnoy may well never have had a band like Dream Theater to play for.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Ricochet
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Posted: August 14 2008 at 03:07 |
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Should Metallica be in the forum?
