Should Metallica be in the forum?

Ricochet wrote: darkshade wrote: Hey if Miles Davis (who I've been saying should be on the site for a few years now) is coming, I dont see why not Metallica. Especially if Iron Maiden are here. Again the "if X is here, why isn't Y" argument?! Or is it this time a more evolved form: "if X is here, I don't see why no Y (X and Y have damn well nothing in common). Especially is Z is here"?

this is not what im saying.

what im saying is that if an artist with many progressive attributes that pushed music further like Miles Davis is finally being added to this site, then a band like Metallica with progressive attributes (in the 80s) that pushed music further should also be added.

as to where, i dont know. I am for them being added to PM. Iron Maiden should also be in this category, it's a disgrace they are under PR, as they were more influential than Metallica (they were influenced by Maiden for god darn's sake!)

anyway here's what i think of Metallica's discography, which only goes up to the Black Album, because after that they became "Alternica"

Kill 'Em All - 1983 - Not really prog, though a few songs lean towards it, especially The Four Horsemen (Mechanixxx for you Megadeth fans, only more prog). Mostly great thrash metal with great play on themes

Ride the Lightning - 1984 - Mostly prog, they're still coming off their full thrash assault days, but the compositions are now much more elaborate and technical. Also their heaviest album IMO

Master of Puppets - 1986 - Full prog metal. Every song, even the 2 bookended thrash songs, are big prog. This was probably their peak. Then you have a song like Orion, which is barely even metal, but a beautiful full out prog rock song.

...And Justice For All - 1988 - Full prog metal. This time the songs are longer and waaaayy more complex. Odd time signatures everywhere, epic compositions and containing their heaviest song in Blackened. The production sound is cool, i just wish there was some bass.

real quick, i had a friend who had GIANT sub-woofers in his truck play this album with the bass ALLLLL the way up (and when the bass was this high, everything shook). However, even with the bass that high, you could not hear any of Newstead's bass parts. You just heard the natural low tone of the guitars and bass drum... very unfortunate. However, it does give the album its identity...

The Black Album (Metallica) - 1991 - The album everyone knows. A big step back from the previous album, but has some prog moments, the structures are still more complex than anything they did afterwards. Maybe a quarter prog. Still a great rock/metal album.

So with these albums (3 of which being highly influential in the genre of prog metal) i think they have enough credibility to be added to the site. Under which sub genre, i dont know, and will probably be a bigger discussion that this one.


Edited by darkshade - August 11 2008 at 00:21

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: darkshade wrote: this is not what im saying. what im saying is that if an artist with many progressive attributes that pushed music further like Miles Davis is finally being added to this site, then a band like Metallica with progressive attributes (in the 80s) that pushed music further should also be added.   That's exactly what if X then why not Y. Metallica should be added at Prog Metal's team criteria  at the end they are the experts, as each and every tream. If Miles Davis is added or not doesn't mean a thing in this case, Miles Davis is not even a Prog Metal artist. Sure he is! But nevermind, my point is not coming across well over the internet . i know i contradicted myself, i just meant Metallica, as with Miles Davis, have the credibility to be here, even though they have not yet been added all this time. darkshade wrote: as to where, i dont know. I am for them being added to PM. Iron Maiden should also be in this category, it's a disgrace they are under PR, as they were more influential than Metallica (they were influenced by Maiden for god darn's sake!) I agree with you about Iron Maiden, but I don't dare to tell a team what they should do, they have the last word AS EACH AND EVERY TEAM. Prog Metal has decided not to accept Iron Maiden and I respect their decision, as we hope the decisions of all the teams are respected. with this i meant if Metallica are added under PM i would be a little annoyed that a band like Maiden aren't. darkshade wrote: anyway here's what i think of Metallica's discography, which only goes up to the Black Album, because after that they became "Alternica" There I don't give an opinion, I'm not a Prog Metal specialist, that's the decision of the team. Im not either, I am, however, a former Metal specialist, used to be all i listened to, besides some hard rock. but i was just poking fun at Metallica's direction after the Black Album   I don't know enough about Metal to tell Mike and his team what to do and what not to do, it doesn't matter that the votes for Metallica are against the band the PMT have the last and only call AS EACH AND EVERY TEAM. well if enough arguments for their inclusion are made, i dont see why they wont be added.   Iván

to reiterate, i am not for adding more metal bands if Metallica get it. That's what that other site is for.

About M@X's decision: I think it's either a reminiscence of when M@X and Rony created the site and thus builded its database from scratch, before the creation of Specialist Teams, either it's a final or decisive vote when (you gotta admit) controversial suggestions such as Metallica are concerned. M@X has actually been a main actor back when Led Zep were discussed.

Now, not to stay this decision Bob mentioned didn't go against the "autonomy" of the PMT (then again, the PMT rejected Metallica themselves), but at this point I find a bit more often the times bands arrive on Teams desk with a recommendation letter from the webmasters themselves. At that time, the autonomy still takes place, as Teams have the last word. I even well remember rejecting Robert Beriau together with the "classic" AR quartet, back in the AR days. Yeah, not seen as a pleasing decision up the high chairs.

Interesting Rico, thanks.

Incidentally, since this band has been rejected by both the Prog Metal team and Prog Related, perhaps this thread should be moved to the "Discuss Rejected Bands and Artists" forum. ;)  Even if the teams can make an autonomous decision on the inclusion of Metallica, I think it unlikely that another team, such as Raga Rock, will want it.

Hey Guys, Looks like I'm coming into this thread late, but I did try to read enough of the earlier posts to get in on the basic drift of things.

Although there other artists missing from PA that I would place above Metallica, I have often pointed out on here that their album Master of Puppets was one of the first 80s albums to capture that introverted {existential/spiritual real me vs the plastic rest of you'll} early 70s emotional musical and lyrical feel that typified so much of classic prog rock bands, especially Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath and Gabriel led Genesis.

Besides, their first two albums rock like nothing else since DP In Rock.

James wrote: In the forum, rather than on the database? Sure... bring in James Hetfield if he'll post... I'd love to chat to him in the Suede Room. Although they may get trapped here and never release that album...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Logan wrote: For me, I find metalish bands such as Hoyry-Kone, Estradasphere, or Secret Chiefs 3 more Prog than prog metal giants ;) such as Nightwish, Blind Guardian, Epica, and Rhapsody (of Fire).  Those aren't "prog metal giants" ... they are on the "outer rim" of Prog Metal. I know you were joking, but I think it's important to point out that I (or the other members of the PMT, to my knowledge) am aware that these bands aren't prime examples of the *style* of Prog Metal. Neither are Secret Chiefs 3. Dream Theater and Fates Warning will always be the two prime examples of Prog Metal ... but of course - and fortunately - that doesn't mean that we can only add DT clones. Logan wrote: I used to think of RiO/ Avant progressive movements as quite seperate to the Prog movement, but I don't anymore.  I'd go so far to say that RiO (while a particular movement) took Prog to the next level (evolved it), and I think that when typical Prog was waning, certain avant rock artists were the ones who were truly progressing rock -- with integrity to the art, I'd say, and real musical values.  I'd like to say saved Prog, but it wasn't popular enough.  You could also think of the movement as an aftermath of prog - a last attempt at saving the prog "spirit" if you will. In any case, prog was dead at the beginning of the 80s, and what came afterwards was a different kind of music, regardless of which genre you're looking at. Even bands like Anglagard or Wobbler can't re-create the vibe of the original "wave" of prog artists/albums. Logan wrote: Whatever others think of Metallica etc. as prog, and despite historical concerns, it's the musical qualities that are paramount. I don't think of Metallica as prog. It's the old distinction between progressive and prog ... some find it laughable to make such a distinction, but it's really necessary IMO to understand the development of the genres.

Indeed Mike, you've said exactly what many of us have been thinking
I made the point earlier in the thread (well I think I did anyway) that indeed Metallica weren't merely an "influence" on prog metal, but just like Fates Warning and Queensryche (Dream Theater hadn't entered the game at this stage) I and many others consider to be in the real deal prog metal game.

Logan wrote: Missed which site you're referring to.

metal-archives.com

*edit* BTW this band SHOULD be added to the archives, even though they just broke up and released only one album... http://www.myspace.com/bogdanovichband


Edited by darkshade - August 11 2008 at 03:53

Easy Livin wrote: For the consipracy theorist who thought they could "Smell a rat", here's an old thread which will be of interest : http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4778

haha and System of a Down?? i remember when that was a big topic. i would almost say 'yay' for their inclusion too.........

i don't think metallica shoul be added in the forum, after all, it's about progressive rock and metallica do not bear even a slight hint of progressive.