Church group to protest funeral

WinterLight wrote: NaturalScience wrote: Fine.  Then no institution qualifies as a church: religion inheres separatism, xenophobia, and hate (despite its capacity to promote sometimes the dual characteristics). So, as my wife and I were raised Catholic, we must be xenophobic sociopaths, right? Don't be obtuse.  I used the term "religion" not "religious people" to underscore those specified tendencies in religious doctrine.  It is a trivial observation to point out that the laity (and often the clergy) don't always adhere completely to orthodoxy.

I'd appreciate you dialing down the condescension, if you don't mind.

What I'm asking is I have never observed those properties you ascribe to any religion transmitted at all in the religious observances I've attended.  Surely the dogma or doctrine containing xenophobia and hate would be propagated at these official services, wouldn't it?

WinterLight wrote: NaturalScience wrote: I'd appreciate you dialing down the condescension, if you don't mind. Not condescension, but rather a tone appropriate in response to sarcastic baiting. Unfortunately, I'm not an automaton, and your statement pushed a button.  Then I realized this is all just anonymous intellectual w**kery on the internet, so I'll continue in that detached vein. What I'm asking is I have never observed those properties you ascribe to any religion transmitted at all in the religious observances I've attended.  Surely the dogma or doctrine containing xenophobia and hate would be propagated at these official services, wouldn't it? Again, the answer is clear.  Such principles need not be articulated explicitly in any official context, but rather they are understood through the related processes of internalization and separation. I need clarification on "internalization and separation".  In particular, if we may let's focus on the word hate.  Your contention is that I, as a follower of religion, would somehow come to understand (through an unclear mechanism, possibly implication, subtext, etc.) hatred of something - but I gained no such understanding at any of the religious functions I attended.  And though indeed you claim (correctly) that not all practitioners adopt all or even some doctrines, wouldn't I have to observe or somehow be aware of a doctrine in order to adopt or reject it? Also note that I never claimed that the practitioners of a particular religion adopt all or even some of the doctrines fundamental to their religion, only that religion (and to generalize still further, any belief system) is prone to social ossification--one need not probe the literature too deeply to uncover a plethora of such historical examples.

Folks, all I wanted to point out is the blindness, the ignorance of extremists to the harm, the damage that they do their cause, and most importantly (Like I give a f**k about stupid causes) the disregard for the pain they cause the innocent victim.
Protest abortion rights. Hey, that's your consititutional right to express your opposition. Harass, and endanger those who, for whatever personal reason, have opted for that painful choice, and you're putting your cause ahead of other peoples' real difficult situations.
If you feel that Canukhistan, I mean Canada, has strayed from your view point of what your opinion of what your version of a Supreme being that you choose to personify as a God (whew, out of breath from trying to isolate the identity or belief of a select few) , might be, well , that is your interpretation, and you certainly should be able to follow up on those "understandings" (strange, how the ancient Israelites originally described 'god" as being unknowable or beyond human understanding ).
But to intrude on a private ceremony, whether it be of grievance or joy, is too much. Heck , our Canadian minister of Public Safety, Stockwell Day, he of the creationist believing quarter of Christianity, had even ordered the border guards to watch out for these misguided souls and refuse them entry into our country. And even more, er ... ironic is not the word, but the slightly more sane wing of the Westboro Church has advised those who would picket the funeral that they might consider not going through with their initial plans for fear of their safety.

I don't care if an extremist is Christiam, Islamic, Right Wing Evangelical, Left wing environmental, Elitist snob or whatever. I have gone from youthful idealism to middle aged pragmatism. Fighting the good fight while harming many who you would argue you are saving is no longer acceptable. Period.
I previously mentioned my Country's hockey attitude. Meaning, that if you act in an un-acceptable manner, the "refs" might not get you, but the other team will. Andyou'll find out that the "refs" may look the other way, knowing that you brought it upon yourself.
Proudly, I read of a Canadian Internet petition that has so far amassed 700 plus signatures to form an "honour" guard around the funeral to keep the "picketers" at bay. But, I bow to my base animal instincts, and say, that any man that is willing to disrespect his fellow brother/sister  in this way, is worthy of ending up with a "hockey" smile for his efforts.
Free Speech, yes ... but expect that some freedoms will meet with a reasonable and acceptable revulsion to your lack of good sense and human kindness.
Or , in a typical Canadian hockey metaphor, if you're going in the corners with your elbows up and stick in the air, don't expect the other guy to coddle and hug you in the corner, eh.
And if you feel the price to pay is fair, don't complain about missing your two front teeth, OK, eh.



Edited by debrewguy - August 08 2008 at 22:58

debrewguy wrote: Folks, all I wanted to point out is the blindness, the ignorance of extremists to the harm, the damage that they do their cause, and most importantly (Like I give a f**k about stupid causes) the disregard for the pain they cause the innocent victim. Protest abortion rights. Hey, that's your consititutional right to express your opposition. Harass, and endanger those who, for whatever personal reason, have opted for that painful choice, and you're putting your cause ahead of other peoples' real difficult situations. I

 

micky wrote: Norbert wrote: . At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria  than reported by the politically correct media.   Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't  give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.                      oh and I ALMOST start to cry... boo boo.. the problem is one...you all are not peaceful...  and two.. have your priorities in the completely wrong spot.  Protecting life is all well and good...   for you all though... it stops when they are born and children are thrown to the wolves of a very harsh and cruel world.   Read this article.. .and tell me where your so called pro-life activists... your compassion...  your church was.... http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece

To be fair, that child abuse was not apparently done by a religious extremist.  However...
http://philobiblon.co.uk/?p=1198
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2945510/The-Fundamentals-of-Extremism-the.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_5_63/ai_107897342

I was about to add that your point was not lost on me, though.  My links actually back you up.


Edited by Slartibartfast - August 09 2008 at 10:16

"Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether"

...

"You cant run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state"
To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless theres a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we dont do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)"
Frank Zappa

Norbert wrote:   Oh I almost start to cry...         What a pathetic drivel. But Massmurderer Morgenthaler has an Order of Canada... Unborn children don't deserve human kindness according to this secular liberal mob, than wants to bully on everyone their rubbish. At that really doesn't matter, that completely peaceful pro life activists suffer much more violence and death threats from Ecuador to Austria  than reported by the politically correct media.   Anyway this thread deserves to sink to the depth of the forums, and I won't  give a flying Mellotron what some dozen ignorant forum warriors think of me, so I certainly won't come back to this topic.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 09 2008 at 12:19

Slartibartfast wrote: Odd that this is turning into an abortion discussion thread.  It's supposed to be about that nut job, Fred Phelps and crew. Something related in the news lately, pharmacists who are refusing to sell contraceptives on religious grounds.  Anyone want to share opinions on that one?  Personally, I think their licenses should be yanked.

[/discussion]


(in other words, I agree)

Agnosticism rocks, guys! Believing in a interactive god is ok and only slightly less reasonable than something like deism or agnosticism, imo, but to hold steadfast in a believe like atheism or any solid religion is...well...silly. A lot of atheists are perhaps agnostic but who don't choose to wallow in uncertainty forever, It seems hard for me to believe most atheists are more sure there isn't a god than they are sure they don't know there is a god. But to take the bible literally, after all of its translations and history, and without Jesus coming back to make sure we still believe in him....is just silly.