Miles Davis proto-prog

Er, Bitches' Brew: is one of the most heatedly debated albums in the jazz world. Its' status within the prog world is not quite as high as you seem to see it.
I've only been on PA for about 2 years now, and until this thread, very rarely saw Davis or this album mentioned. Which would be strange for an all time prog album ...

debrewguy wrote: Rocktopus wrote: darkshade wrote: debrewguy wrote: Miles Davis, he's got like what , 100 albums, and because 3-4 were jazz fusion, even if Bitches Brew is the only one that gets mentioned most of the time, we should automatically say, YES THIS IS A PROG GUY. Agharta At Fillmore-Live at the Fillmore East Big Fun Bitches Brew Dark Magus Filles De Kilimanjaro Get Up With It In A Silent Way It's About That Time Live at Philharmonic Hall Live At The Fillmore West Live Evil The Man With The Horn Miles In The Sky On The Corner Pangea Star People A Tribute To Jack Johnson Waterbabies We Want Miles Its the pointless whole discography or nothing thing, that keeps this thread alive. Miles 68-74 = yes (I don't know his 80's output). If debrewguy knows the albums in darkshade's post, he would also know that they belong in jazzrockfusion. Its Miles with a very different band or bands. Imagine if he started calling it The Miles Davis Group in '68. Then this group would already been here. Same thing with Herbie Hancock, a couple of years later, starting with the Mwandishi albums. Oh, and by the way, live albums, unless comprised of all new material shouldn't count, eh...

why not?

and i mentioned in an earlier post that a lot of Miles' live albums consist of original material you cant find on studio albums. Also there's a lot of improvisation, so thats even more material. ALSO, different lineups interpreted certain songs differently.

BTW whats the deal with Miles being included in this site or not? im getting tired of the waiting game

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I alwasy believed Bitche Brew should be here and for some time I supported the inclusion of Miles Davis, not in Proto Prog, where he doesn't belong, but in Fusion which is his right place.   But an Administrator asked me...What about his pre. Bitches Brew discography?   Lets faced, the guy is correct, we would be adding a huge non Prog discography (54 pre-BB NON Prog albums to be precise and most of his post BB albums aren't Prog either), but what is worst,, we wouuld be adding to Prog Archives albums from 1949, when not even Rock was born...This would be misleading.   If there was a way to add Bitches Brew and a couple of his more than 100 albums, I'd say yes, but adding him....I have to believe the Adm was correct and I was wrong, his addition would cause more damage than good.   Iván

that's a shame........

dont get me wrong, i understand where the admins are coming from. i still say Miles should be an exception to the 'all or nothing' rule, since he's the only jazz guy to make such a transition from jazz to jazz-rock/fusion. And it's not like he went backwards either, he kept progressing into jazz-rock/funk, and the 80s which was jazz-fusion/electronic/funk/metal-jazz-fusion etc... he never made a 'jazz' album again.

Miles Davis post-'67 is a completely different "band". everything post-67 should be added, with a mention in his bio of his previous work and why it does not correlate to the archives. i dont see why this would be a problem, and would make everyone happy.

the solution is a simple common sense one.... and one that has been used here my myself and my teams for some time with regard to artists who have extensive career discographies or artists who have large segments of their career that bear no relation to the site .  When you add the artist...  you add him and and the albums that bear relation to this site.  If others want to add and review the other albums... more power to them.  Remember.. this is a prog site... not Allmusic.com.  If people want to 'complete' his discography... again.. more power to them M@X allows and wants that.  Things like this should never hold up an addition...  as I have been told by our admins before... add them.. and let everything else sort itself out.  If people want his whole disography added.... let them do it. Everyone can add albums...

micky wrote: the solution is a simple common sense one.... and one that has been used here my myself and my teams for some time with regard to artists who have extensive career discographies or artists who have large segments of their career that bear no relation to the site .  When you add the artist...  you add him and and the albums that bear relation to this site.  If others want to add and review the other albums... more power to them.  Remember.. this is a prog site... not Allmusic.com.  If people want to 'complete' his discography... again.. more power to them M@X allows and wants that.  Things like this should never hold up an addition...  as I have been told by our admins before... add them.. and let everything else sort itself out.  If people want his whole disography added.... let them do it. Everyone can add albums...

i agree. have his albums from Miles in the Sky onwards added, and if other people want to add more, let them go for it. Personally, I'd add Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue (for their musical importance) then again, i'd probably add everything anyway, but only if i had the time.

Easy Money wrote: Another way to look at this is that Miles did occaisonally have different names for his various earlier groups (ie Miles Davis Quintet etc)

this is true. now that i think of it, most of Davis' albums post-67 were credited to only him, and not a band or quintet. but this was true of some of his earlier albums too, so this is kind of irrelevant anyway. good point though.

Slartibartfast wrote: darkshade wrote: micky wrote: the solution is a simple common sense one.... and one that has been used here my myself and my teams for some time with regard to artists who have extensive career discographies or artists who have large segments of their career that bear no relation to the site .  When you add the artist...  you add him and and the albums that bear relation to this site.  If others want to add and review the other albums... more power to them.  Remember.. this is a prog site... not Allmusic.com.  If people want to 'complete' his discography... again.. more power to them M@X allows and wants that.  Things like this should never hold up an addition...  as I have been told by our admins before... add them.. and let everything else sort itself out.  If people want his whole disography added.... let them do it. Everyone can add albums... i agree. have his albums from Miles in the Sky onwards added, and if other people want to add more, let them go for it. Personally, I'd add Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue (for their musical importance) then again, i'd probably add everything anyway, but only if i had the time. Easy Money wrote: Another way to look at this is that Miles did occaisonally have different names for his various earlier groups (ie Miles Davis Quintet etc) this is true. now that i think of it, most of Davis' albums post-67 were credited to only him, and not a band or quintet. but this was true of some of his earlier albums too, so this is kind of irrelevant anyway. good point though. I'm a compulsive album adder.  And even though there's a way to sneak them in, if they aren't "Miles Davis" titled albums, I'd leave those out.

they're all HIS albums. everything after Birth of the Cool are Miles Davis albums, some just say "Miles Davis Quintet"

micky wrote: to me it is a no-brainer..... with a great heaping of common sense he'll go in as Miles Davis... as far as any earlier albums that people may add where there was some sort of group like 'The Miles Davis Quartet... or Quintet'.  Just let common sense be the guide...as I alluded to before...  Davis has more references across the internet than any artist here on this site... if the albums are generally credited to him as an artist on more specialized and complete  jazz sites.. then they should be here as well.  Can't think of any off the top of my head that wouldn't be.

Fine with me, I was just trying to come up with a creative way to please the prog-rock purists and keep Miles' more trad-jazz off the site.
Anyway, hopefully with Miles on the site some of these other artists will take more pride in their 'look' and stop wearing all that old hippie crap.

some of his more popular albums (fusion or not) will probably get reviews. It's the later 70s fusion albums and the 80s ones im looking forward to read reviews about.

micky wrote: ^ easy.... to be blunt...  screw M@X's policy... and again...  add them as people review them.   can't think of more than a handful that will really get reviewed here.  We'll add the pertinent albums.. and let the others twist in the wind... this is a prog site afterall..

Anyone can add albums once the artist has been added. You won't be able to keep people from adding Kind of Blue ...

Rocktopus wrote: Cheesecakemouse wrote: I think not only his prog stuff but; ESP, Sorceror and Miles Smiles are also proto-fusion, roughly half of his career was prog. I think you're wrong about those three albums (They're simply great sixties jazz/postbop or something), and very wrong about half his career being prog. 67/68-75, were his jazzrock-fusion years, never prog, and about 15-16 official releases out of hundreds (Probably some more, because I don't really know his 81-91 discography, but I sure haven't seen it called prog anywhere) His eighties to ninties stuff is also fusion, I have his documentary on DVD and it is defined as  jazz fusion. So IMO, mid 60s to 91 was jazz fusion/prog, and IMO the post  bopstuff was proto- jazz fusion, even if you don't consider the post bop stuff, over half his carer was prog, 1948-mid 60s jazz (about 15 years including post bop), mid 60s - 91 prog (25 years) I also think Sketches of Spain, Porgy and Bess were pretty experimental for the time Sure they were. And Kind of Blue was maybe even more experimental for its time, but that's got nothing to do with it. Miles was always changing and experimenting, like many artists who's got nothing to do with prog. If being pretty experimental for its time was an argument in itself, we would have to consider virtually every profilic jazzartist of the sixties.  Btw: I'm just joining in for the fun of it here. I'm perfectly happy with Miles being added.

Edited by Cheesecakemouse - August 07 2008 at 07:23