Miles Davis to be added to the Prog Archives

Draith wrote: I hate the "all-or-nothing" policy, personally. You know that pop-rock band Journey? Their first couple albums are at least prog-related, odd meter, extended solos, instrumentals and what not. And let's not forget Genesis 80s album having obviously nothing to do with "Symphonic" prog, if any prog at all. It's true, Miles Davis himself as a jazz artist can be considered "progressive" in the sense he founded most of the subgenres of jazz music itself, and I can kind of see everything from bitches brew onward on this site. But even so, do we really want to start calling even that progressive rock? What's next, John Coltrane? (who did make many proggish album in the jazz sense) I say throw out the all-or-nothing policy or don't put MD in at all. As well, just because something is fusion doesn't mean it's progressive, though Bitches Brew just may count. Besides, if we added all of his discography I would just have to give Kind of Blue a masterpiece rating.

The thing with Genesis's 80s music is so often pointed out, I think there's no end to it. Still it's completely irrelevant, in whatever context of " how come"  it is used: Genesis are mainly one of the greatest symphonic prog bands in Prog Rock history, they're credited as that for their about 9-10 albums from the 70s. In comparison, their pop becomes irrelevant to what they truly stand for here.

The " all-or-nothing" policy is used simply because this site is structured on bands, not albums. As long as Genesis, as band, is regarded as prog, anything officially by Genesis must be included in their "discography" page!

Now, comparing pop-band Journey with...a seminal artist in the realms of Jazz, Fusion and music itself? How comes that?

I've yet to know much of Miles Davis' work, so I apologize for only coming in to respond to this wrongly-seen IMO vision of " all-or-nothing". I do, however, remember opinions that Davis' music dates way back in 1949, which is an year when prog rock didn't even existed. T'will be interesting to see how this comes along with the rest...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ Not "Rock" enough. I think that in order to be included here the music has to be progressive *and* must be rooted in or at least be strongly influenced by Rock.

I just ment to point out that Miles started his fusion period a year (an a half) before. Those four titles I mentioned are strongly influenced by rock. Maybe to a lesser extent than Bitches Brew,  but still jazzrock fusion. 

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Ricochet wrote: The " all-or-nothing" policy is used simply because this site is structured on bands, not albums. As long as Genesis, as band, is regarded as prog, anything officially by Genesis must be included in their "discography" page! That's indeed the problem ... the genres are structured on bands, but it's the albums which are reviewed. As long as this problem isn't addressed, we'll always have those kind of problems.

Not a problem actually. Reviewing a band would be more of a " study" written for that band, instead album reviews are as normal as ever.

We do review the albums of that band
We do listen to the albums of that band, when evaluating for addition
But we also have to stick with the band altogether, not with just albums, when adding a band.

We can very well consider those 5-6 albums by David prog, but we ought not to say "add those, leave the rest"  or " consider those, forget about the rest" , because here is where the site, as it was structured, doesn't allow it.

Ricochet wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Ricochet wrote: The " all-or-nothing" policy is used simply because this site is structured on bands, not albums. As long as Genesis, as band, is regarded as prog, anything officially by Genesis must be included in their "discography" page! That's indeed the problem ... the genres are structured on bands, but it's the albums which are reviewed. As long as this problem isn't addressed, we'll always have those kind of problems. Not a problem actually. Reviewing a band would be more of a " study" written for that band, instead album reviews are as normal as ever. We do review the albums of that band We do listen to the albums of that band, when evaluating for addition But we also have to stick with the band altogether, not with just albums, when adding a band. We can very well consider those 5-6 albums by David prog, but we ought not to say "add those, leave the rest"  or " consider those, forget about the rest" , because here is where the site, as it was structured, doesn't allow it.

^ I never listened to those albums ... but I listened to many Miles Davis songs over the years, without knowing from which album they were. I only own Kind of Blue and have listened to Bitches Brew, but I'll try to listen to some of the other albums from the time around 1970. I know that he was an eclectic artist ... some of his music is pure Jazz, some is Fusion, some is more experimental, some is more traditional. Unfortunately listening to this kind of music *in detail* is a very time consuming task ...  

Dean wrote: Ricochet wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Ricochet wrote: The " all-or-nothing" policy is used simply because this site is structured on bands, not albums. As long as Genesis, as band, is regarded as prog, anything officially by Genesis must be included in their "discography" page! That's indeed the problem ... the genres are structured on bands, but it's the albums which are reviewed. As long as this problem isn't addressed, we'll always have those kind of problems. Not a problem actually. Reviewing a band would be more of a " study" written for that band, instead album reviews are as normal as ever. We do review the albums of that band We do listen to the albums of that band, when evaluating for addition But we also have to stick with the band altogether, not with just albums, when adding a band. We can very well consider those 5-6 albums by David prog, but we ought not to say "add those, leave the rest"  or " consider those, forget about the rest" , because here is where the site, as it was structured, doesn't allow it. True, but the Biographer can list those albums in the "Why this artist must be listed in www.progarchives.com " paragraph with further explanation if necessary and can even highlight career periods that are decidedly not "prog" if they feel the need.   As Micky has said, the JR/F albums would be added as part of the initial addition. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that it will take a period of time to add the remaining albums, which would be added as part of the on-going process of completing the discography - this could take weeks, months (or even years as more obscure albums come to light).

I regularly prefer seeing a bit more extra mention over the artist's prog qualities rather than a list of essential albums that are good for prog, but, anyway, sure, it's okay. Even more, each competent reviewer can stipulate the proggyness of an album.

The idea is different. Outside these simple explanations ("X is prog because of.../thanks to...etc.), if a band itself has an enourmous career out of which particular albums hint the "prog"  factor or if the style is only tangent with prog rock, then we have a more complicated addition to think over.

But if the above "parameters" are fine, than the addition itself should go fine as well.

actually after his hiatus, he came back in 1979 since sessions for The Man With The Horn were from 79 till 81.

The 80s jazz-fusion albums are underrated. albums like The Man With The Horn, We Want Miles, Star People, Decoy, etc...

and the names who played with Miles during this time are (as always) a who's who in the jazz world.

John Scofield
Mike Stern
John McLaughlin
Marcus Miller
George Duke
Branford Marsalis
Bill Evans
Quincy Jones
Gil Evans
Don Alias
Mino Cinelu
Al Foster
Robert Irving III
Daryl Jones
Bob Berg
Steve Reid
Joe Sample
Kenny Garrett

Bought the vinyl edition of In A Silent Way today ... listening to it now. Great music, but while I certainly see why it's called Jazz-Fusion I don't hear much Rock in it. It's experimental, epic - but in my book it's not "prog".

You know, after being one of the many that argued that a tenth of of an artist's work shouldn't serve as the basis for inclusion; I have to say that , upon open-minded reflection ... well .....  Miles is not a bad choice to add to PA's data base. Yes, he played a big part in many of "true " Jazz's forms & styles. But he also was part of the initial wave of fusion acts, he influenced many others outside of this "disputed" genre, along with playing a major role in "advancing" music in general.
So, if you want to say that you want to include "PROGRESSIVE ARTISTS"
 )caps for emphasis(... then MD is one who belongs. Add him to Proto-prog, Jazz Fusion, prog related, whatever. Unlike the Joke-all, I mean Rock N Roll Hall of Fame that let him in  to be hip, reasonable arguements were made for his inclusion here. And yes, as a well known musician, many were able to bring up well meant objections that were valid.
BUT, disregard his starting point, never mind where he ended up ! Just see that , for a certain period, his "oeuvre" was deserving of inclusion. And furthermore, as we "honour" groups like Deep Purple, the Doors, and others as "Proto-Prog", Miles surely had a good share of influence on much of the "players" in prog and what they eventually came up with.
Hopefully, we carefully consider this as not opening the door to big names as Coltrane, Satie, Montgomery and others. Mostly, as they ... comparatively did not have the same "proof " , if you will, to support their joining the PA  "club".

Hi Mike, although my priorities run towards John Cale and the JH Experience for proto prog and/or prog related, or the Experience for JR/Fusion, I can relate to your case for Metallica, and them over Priest too.

The thing about Metallica is that they were one of the first bands I heard in the 80s that were able to recapture the introverted misfit emotional quality that much of the early 70s prog bands had. There is a lot of talk about structure and technique, but that early 70s pathos is hard to recreate, and Metallica had it for awhile.

By the way Mike, if you want to hear the prog-rock side of Miles, your still listening to the wrong records, check the above posts for better recommendations.

Edited by Easy Money - August 09 2008 at 03:33