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Topic ClosedMiles Davis to be added to the Prog Archives

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Poll Question: Do you think Miles Davis post-67 should be added to the PA?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Miles Davis to be added to the Prog Archives
    Posted: August 03 2008 at 20:24
this has been argued plenty on another thread and there seem to be more reasons why Miles Davis SHOULD be added to Prog Archives than shouldn't. And most of the reasons given for why he shouldnt be here are mostly technical problems in terms of part of his discography prior to 1967 is jazz, so there would be too many jazz albums added (thus why his albums after 1967 would be added) and this gets in the way of the "all-or-nothing" policy this site has. But there werent too many musical reasons why he couldnt be here. in fact, his large discography post-67 completely fits the guidelines for being able to be added to this site.

Im saying this "all-or-nothing" policy of having entire discographies added works for almost all bands and artists here because none of their careers started until after rock and roll was formed. Miles Davis was around before rock existed way back in the 40's, it's not his fault he was born in a different time. I know of no other progressive artist where this is a problem, in terms of discographies. He made more jazz-rock/fusion albums than almost ALL the bands and artists on this site.

i think he should be an exception to the rule, besides, how many artists or bands has this problem come up anyway? plenty of prog bands from the 70s keep releasing non-prog albums, yet they keep getting added to PA and flooding the site.

so you decide
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2008 at 20:29
I don't really think he should be added at all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:35
I'm adding Miles Davis  this week when I get home from Rome...  too long overdue... not added for the most stupid of reasons.  Few have any quibble with his merits.. and some get the picture about how ridiculous it is to have a jazz-fusion section here and NOT have the man here.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:37
No.
 
This is progressive rock archives. Not progressive jazz archives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:47
ehhhh... wrong answer....  Jazz-rock fusion is a sub-genre of these archives thus... prog.  Whether you agree or not.. .it is what it is.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:00
Miles was clearly in the realm of Fusion by 1969, absolutely no doubts about that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:03

Well...I suppose its some improvement...at least he's progressive. Tongue

 
But apparently this matter is decided. It seems this thread isn't needed and should be closed...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:48
Thank you Michael! I'm looking forward to his addition, as Dick Heath has pointed out many times, Miles was not the first person to mix rock with jazz, but Miles did much more than that. Check out albums like On the Corner (progresive African music played with electronic instruments), Agharta and Big Fun (Psychedelic rock influenced by Stockhausen's Moment Form and played with jazz technique and fluency) plus so many other recordings that transcend simple boundries in which he combined all the influences he readily absorbed.

When the brilliant bop guitarist Mike Stern joined Miles jazz-rock band in the early 80s, Miles pulled out a portable cassette player with Van Halen on it and said don't play that jazz sh*t, play this!

Edited by Easy Money - August 04 2008 at 03:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:34
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:



When the brilliant bop guitarist Mike Stern joined Miles jazz-rock band in the early 80s, Miles pulled out a portable cassette player with Van Halen on it and said don't play that jazz sh*t, play this!


LOLLOLLOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:34
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

I'm adding Miles Davis  this week when I get home from Rome...  too long overdue... not added for the most stupid of reasons.  Few have any quibble with his merits.. and some get the picture about how ridiculous it is to have a jazz-fusion section here and NOT have the man here.   


Shocked Clap

Are you adding his whole discography or only his fusion period?


Edited by Tuzvihar - August 04 2008 at 04:34
"Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:42
Good call. How about this being an opening for a new category: Progressive Jazz?

We're all for expanding barriers, are we not? Why this introvert and irrational "rock" straitjacket?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:48
Originally posted by Tuzvihar Tuzvihar wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

I'm adding Miles Davis  this week when I get home from Rome...  too long overdue... not added for the most stupid of reasons.  Few have any quibble with his merits.. and some get the picture about how ridiculous it is to have a jazz-fusion section here and NOT have the man here.   


Shocked Clap

Are you adding his whole discography or only his fusion period?


pfff...  that is what we have a forum for...  95% of the forum will never hear.. nor review 75% of his recordings. It isn't for not knowing about them.  It is sad .....but true I guess. Davis is not some unknown schmuck and if people don't know his 100 odd album.. it isn't going to be because they aren't spotlighted here LOL If people want an overview of his career... they can go to Allmusic.com for example.   I\'m sure his fusion albums will be added upon addition... and the others?  Others can add them as time goes on.  His discography will be listed in the bio as part of the addition, as it should be done.  However... adding the albums to the database?  As I posted before..  let others do that if they wish. Anyone can add albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 05:25
Desoc: I think this progressive jazz should have a relation to rock, like Herbie Hancock and his Mwandishi-sextet do (but midsixties soloalbums don't), since this is a prog rock rescource site. I don't think that approach would be irrational. 

Btw: Fortunate thing for PA that Tony Williams added Lifetime behind his name in ca 1969, otherwise they would have the same problem as they have with Miles. No one would disagree with Miles' inclusion if it started in 67-68 here. But if , as I suspect every album starting somewhere in the late 40's are added, its not hard to understand why some are strongly against.

Is Herbie's Mwandishi/Headhunters-era next, then? Or is the silly complete-discography-or-nothing rule gonna stand in the way?

Edit: Noticed Mickey's answer to some of what I wrote about, after I posted. 




Edited by Rocktopus - August 04 2008 at 05:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:17


Roctopus...   one thing I've noticed over the last year is people have finally been 'chilling out' regarding additions here.  Does that mean that people have agreed with all of them. No, I'm sure it doesn't.  What I hope it means though is people have have finally got it through their thick heads that there are many ways of seeing prog and even related.. and people see that many views here are taken into account.  Will there be a fit about Davis... I severely doubt that... anyone who does will probably be eaten alive since most here will agree he belongs here and if there are albums from the 1950's on this site... or god forbid.. reviewed on the main page... most people are frickin intelligent enough to know that they are NOT prog jazz-fusion albums but just an extention of PA's policy.   Kind of Blue will get some reviews here, yet the person who mistakes it for a prog album will get laughed out of this forum.  I will be seen for what it is.. a landmark essential album of all music put out by an artist that LATER helped define one of the main sub-genres of prog here.  Personally I love the album ..yet probably won't review it ..for if someone here hasn't heard it.. they are beyond hope already and god knows what else they haven't heard. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:35
I think the real problem with this inclusion is that there are different types of Jazz-Fusion. Some is very firmly rooted in Jazz, some is closer to Rock or Prog (I've even seen the term "Prog-Fusion").

I'm not an expert when it comes to Miles Davis - but if his Jazz Fusion albums are too firmly rooted in Jazz, then I don't think he should be added.


EDIT: We should also keep in mind that listing Jazz-Fusion as a sub genre of Prog Rock is already a bit of a stretch ... it mostly happens by chains of associations, like Yes -> Soft Machine -> Mahavishnu Orchestra. As interesting as Jazz-Fusion may be, even artists like Mahavishnu or Return to Forever are in the "outskirts" of prog, and including artists which reach even further into the realms of Jazz may be too much.

But *if* he is added then we should also add John Coltrane, and Ornette Coleman.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 04 2008 at 06:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:46
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:



But *if* he is added then we should also add John Coltrane, and Ornette Coleman.


huh OuchLOL

though thanks for putting the soap box in front of me.. so I will stand upon it again...

if the suggestion.. which I know Raff had put forward more times that I could count... had been implemented to redefine 'Proto-prog' to 'Influences on Prog'  and of course 'Prog-related' to 'Influenced by Prog'  then we could truly have a realistic picture of these two subs. 

Since those two never came with whisper of J-R fusion... or prog...  of course there is no reason to have them added.  Same as Brubeck... who was as big an influence as ANY non-tradional rock artist on prog as anyone here.  Yet it is just as silly to include him in 'proto-prog' or jazz-rock


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:48
Man With Hat and Pnoom! are both reasonable, and not thickheaded but intelligent guys, and I can see why they react in this thread. (I'm still all for, even if he got 250 albums with no fusion featured)

No ones probably thinking: God forbid if anyone reviews Scetches of Spain or Someday my Prince Will Come! I'm sure most of us loves a lot of the purely jazz Miles albums. I know I do.

... But the logic in choosing to add selected albums, or adding albums from a specific period of time, with some artists (like Miles and Herbie) are just so obvious. I know the owners disagree, but maybe they'll change their minds if they hear it suggested 1000 times or more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:53
disagreeing is not thick-headed.  Surely you recall the reactions in the past to some additions.. that is what I am talking about.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:58
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:



... But the logic in choosing to add selected albums, or adding albums from a specific period of time, with some artists (like Miles and Herbie) are just so obvious. I know the owners disagree, but maybe they'll change their minds if they hear it suggested 1000 times or more.


exactly as I said in the parallel thread to this.. it is common sense.. you add the albums that are the basis for his inclusion now.. upon his addition. If people want to add and review his earlier albums for example.. by M@X's policy.. they are free to do so.. but having such a large disography is not.. and shall not be an impediment to being added.  Again.. this is a prog site....  we spotlight the music....  let sites like Allmusic.com deal with the artist as a whole.  The problem that some have is thinking that Miles Davis is .. or is not prog. What the f**k does that mean... .really.   Like Genesis... many of these artists had phases went they put out prog albums.. and phases when they didn't.  Miles Davis was a significant factor  ...with essential albums in the realm of J-R fusion.. thus... he will added there.  No problem there is there... yet some will..  pffff...LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:13
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:



But *if* he is added then we should also add John Coltrane, and Ornette Coleman.



Since those two never came with whisper of J-R fusion... or prog...  of course there is no reason to have them added.  Same as Brubeck...


True, but those were just very bad examples. Loads and loads not in the PA has released a couple of fusion albums. Bobby Hutcherson, Julian Priester, Jan Garbarek, Mal Waldron, Herbie Mann, Eddie Henderson, Wayne Shorter etc... basically everyone not too old of those jazzmen that survived the late sixties (except Coleman, Cecil Taylor and some of the other purely avantgardists or traditionalists) did.

I'd actually love to see those fusion albums included, but not if it means having to include Flautista: Herbie Mann plays Afro-Cuban jazz!, Do the Bossa Nova or the thirty Jan Garbarek new-age muzak albums as well.
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