Learn to listen, listen to learn...

Kestrel wrote: I was working on a blog post related to this subject a few weeks ago but postponed finishing it because I wanted a little more information from a friend. What it was was a comparison between a friend and I and how that reflects our taste in music. the gist of it was that since I have lots of free time, I can take the time to lsiten to an album and reflect on it and read about it. She, on the other hand, is a very busy person who I think views music as something to get her moving, singing and dancing to give her a break from all the work. She doesn't have the time to listen to "heavy stuff" like Supper's Ready or a Plague of Lighthouse Keepers and the like. Of course, this doesn't explain everything, but I believe it's a significant factor.

That is an interesting idea, you should go ahead and write it!

I wonder whether it's a case, though, of having time, or making time?  I know plenty of people who are impatient with music.  They don't actually like the idea of sitting down for half an hour or more to listen to a whole album, and would probably prefer to use their time some other way (whereas I like - or maybe even need! - to do that almost every day!).  I guess that old chestnut of introversion v extroversion could come into play, too.  I often feel I need time on my own at the end of the day, and find solitude and music together very therapeutic.  There are plenty of people who would find that boring or that the time dragged, and would feel better having a lively face to face conversation or something like that.

If it is a case of the practicalities of having enough time, then yes, I have lots of free time.  In my job I have an office to myself and can listen to any music I fancy while I work (previous jobs I've had were either in open plan offices, involved audio typing (i.e. wearing a headset to hear recorded dictation) or required too much concentration to have music on at the same time... now I have a job that barely requires a right hemisphere, so I can work and listen at the same time!! )  [Come to think of it, I have no idea which parts of the brain are required for enjoying music, but you get what I mean... ]

I wonder also about what kind of feelings different people want from music.  Some people feel a great benefit from hearing dark, heavy, mournful music, whereas that would make others feel psychically uncomfortable.   If your 'feeling preference' is wanting to feel energised, cheerful, bouncy, etc., then I guess some grandiose conceptual work is probably not for you...  And similarly, if you want to feel a million and one complex thoughts and emotions spiralling through your mind like a dictionary in a tornado, well... cheery chart music may not fit the bill...

song_of_copper wrote: So, with that preamble concluded, here's the main question of the post: Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned? I don't mean your *ability to enjoy music* in a general sense - of course that is hardwired into almost all human beings - here I'm talking about the conscious application of ears and brain to the business of deciphering something that cannot necessarily be appreciated as 'aural wallpaper'.  (Forget music as background - to my mind that is like preferring chewing gum to proper food...) Going back to those broad categories, I think many people see listening as a passive experience, and perhaps that is just what many people are used to.  For many, music is just there to ameliorate silence, rather like a nice shade of paintwork enlivens your living room wall...  But there is a huge difference between the almost subliminal awareness of a nice colour and the curiosity and engagement you might feel if you looked at an interesting painting.  In order to wring more than the obvious visual pleasure out of the experience of looking at a painting, we need to use responses of a higher order than just recognising colours and straightforwardly figurative shapes, and it's just the same with music. So that's the area I'm interested in with this post.  Now for a rephrasing of the actual question: have you always felt able to turn your consciousness towards an onslaught of music (reasonably complex music, at that) and discern things in it, or is this something you have learned how to do?

interesting... would be lying if I said I have ever put any thought into it myself.  I am not a life-long progger.. don't swear on the book of prog..  that is reserved for my passion for traditional American music. It is only one of many types of music I love.  I just love the people here so I got a campsite here.

 I have always been a bit of pinball ...  I don't turn my consciousness towards music. .or specific types of music.  My consciousness turns me... which I guess is the answer to your question.  I am a sensory person.. not an intellectual one.  Complex.. simple... means nothing to me.  Only how the music hits me right here *points to heart*.  That is why I have to love prog as a genre ... the diversity of moods, rhythms, sounds... everything. That can speak to me regardless of what kind of mood I am in. 

Not sure if I missed the point of your question or not.. but I tried... having first cup of coffee and cigarette for the day. So my mind isn't up to speed yet.

Nice blog by the way.

song_of_copper wrote: Kestrel wrote: I was working on a blog post related to this subject a few weeks ago but postponed finishing it because I wanted a little more information from a friend. What it was was a comparison between a friend and I and how that reflects our taste in music. the gist of it was that since I have lots of free time, I can take the time to lsiten to an album and reflect on it and read about it. She, on the other hand, is a very busy person who I think views music as something to get her moving, singing and dancing to give her a break from all the work. She doesn't have the time to listen to "heavy stuff" like Supper's Ready or a Plague of Lighthouse Keepers and the like. Of course, this doesn't explain everything, but I believe it's a significant factor. That is an interesting idea, you should go ahead and write it! I wonder whether it's a case, though, of having time, or making time?  I know plenty of people who are impatient with music.  They don't actually like the idea of sitting down for half an hour or more to listen to a whole album, and would probably prefer to use their time some other way (whereas I like - or maybe even need! - to do that almost every day!).  I guess that old chestnut of introversion v extroversion could come into play, too.  I often feel I need time on my own at the end of the day, and find solitude and music together very therapeutic.  There are plenty of people who would find that boring or that the time dragged, and would feel better having a lively face to face conversation or something like that. If it is a case of the practicalities of having enough time, then yes, I have lots of free time.  In my job I have an office to myself and can listen to any music I fancy while I work (previous jobs I've had were either in open plan offices, involved audio typing (i.e. wearing a headset to hear recorded dictation) or required too much concentration to have music on at the same time... now I have a job that barely requires a right hemisphere, so I can work and listen at the same time!! )  [Come to think of it, I have no idea which parts of the brain are required for enjoying music, but you get what I mean... ] I wonder also about what kind of feelings different people want from music.  Some people feel a great benefit from hearing dark, heavy, mournful music, whereas that would make others feel psychically uncomfortable.   If your 'feeling preference' is wanting to feel energised, cheerful, bouncy, etc., then I guess some grandiose conceptual work is probably not for you...  And similarly, if you want to feel a million and one complex thoughts and emotions spiralling through your mind like a dictionary in a tornado, well... cheery chart music may not fit the bill...

M., I will get back to you with your reply to my previous post but firstly, I shall comment on the above.

This is very interesting... I can be impatient with music.  Not to the same degree as not wanting time to listen to a whole album.  I never (or rarely) stop an album halfway through, I always play every single note (even if the album has a track I do not particularly care fore).  However, I always feel guilty listening to music.  When I listen to most music, I try to listen to it without interruptions and whilst I'm not doing anything else.  This is why I get guilty, because I am one of those people who feels guilty being idle (although I am idle more often than I appreciate) and music (and television) do not feel constructive to me.  i can therefore only really listen to a few albums a night (usually before I go to bed, when I'm tired).  I wish I could listen to music and be able to read, or work at the same time but I find the music takes over in the end.  A few classical pieces seem to work but even those take over and I start tapping my fingers and nodding my head, when I'm supposed to be doing something a little bit more constuctive.

As for the other point... this is also an interesting one.  The other day I was in a great mood, I was feeling bouncy and for some odd reason, I wanted to play darker music.  Not to get my mood back down but just because I knew I could listen to it and it wouldn't affect me all that much.  Of course though, I can listen to darker music in almost any mood but it helps if you're happy when you do listen to it.  Bouncy music often annoys me to be honest.  It depends on just how uplifting it is.  Pop music generally annoys me and makes me upset.

I will say more later, when I'm not being disturbed.

song_of_copper wrote: Certif1ed wrote: There are just too many excellent thoughts floating around in this thread, and I must admit, I feel I need to re-read the main post in order to get a bit more out of it - it's kinda like a piece of music you need to hear a few times before you properly "get" it Hehe, too convoluted by half, that's me!   And here comes my long and unwieldy response...   So I'll dive in by picking on the first post that jumps out with something I want to respond to;     Dean wrote: Another excellent blogette Miss M. I don't believe you can educate people to appreciate music beyond a certain level – the ‘height’ of this barrier varies from person to person, but is intrinsic and immovable. In other words, people are born with a natural potential and through learning can achieve that potential, but cannot reach beyond it.   I do not believe this to be true. I think that we all have an infinite capacity for everything, it's just that some take longer than others. I'm a big fan of "Jonathan Livingston Seagull". I think most of us have a larger capacity for *things in general* than we realise, or want to realise.  There is an annoying 'culture of mediocrity' at work here - people denying or hiding their abilities in order not to stand out...  I think that could well mask many people's skills in this area, and of course others. I love this famous quote by Marianne Williamson (except for the God parts... I'd change those bits for 'humanity', maybe...). I don't think everyone has limitless potential, though.  Some people are better than others at some things.

OMG OMG i have so much to say and add to this discussion, but i need a little time to gather my thoughts. i will say this though

i can like a song with no odd times, no key changes, no crazy instrumental section or anything really complex AS LONG as the song is good, and has lasting appeal. These are not necessary things to have in order to have a good, interesting song, (i do like and prefer them) but not necessary.

I'll add more later, probably in a few hours...

just a short one on  "in and outs" :

Simple yet complex = Koenjihyakkei

That's a perfect example for me.

I will get back to this thread later but I'm pushed for time right now.

song_of_copper wrote: So, with that preamble concluded, here's the main question of the post: Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?

I wanted to think about this a bit before I crafted a response, but here's the bottom line answer:

I learned it from my father.  What did I learn?

I learned that music was something one could take the time to sit down and appreciate, because that's exactly what he did:  he was (still is, always has been) an audiophile, so after researching and getting fantastic components, speakers, etc. you obviously want to sit down and enjoy your "investment"...but I still learned from him to isolate the various instruments and hear what the musicians were doing, appreciate a clever turn of phrase in the lyrics of a song, or (as I got older and he got more into classical music) a bit more complex ideas such as variations on a theme.  Funny thing is, not a single minute of all the music he played and I heard growing up was what we quasi-identify as "progressive rock" or "prog".  My particular taste for that type of music I can only describe as innate (when I first heard Fragile by Yes at the age of about 11 or 12 there was an instant appreciation and "click", that elevated the music above all else I had experienced to date), I had to discover that type of music largely on my own and I knew almost nobody else that liked it.

So for me it was the role model of my Dad that taught me to be a "Participant Listener", as it were, because that's exactly what he did, and it never occurred to me to be otherwise - and to be honest, I think there are degrees of this sort of characterization.  "Proggers" would perhaps be on the high "participation" side of this scale (appreciation of complexity and patience for long compositions), but that's not to say that my wife and a lot of my friends can't sit and listen to music as well at their own level of "participation" - in fact, I know very few people who would probably be called "consumers", or whatever you call those for whom music is as much of a background noise as the little fan I run when I go to sleep.  It's certainly next to impossible for those of us who frequent this forum to begin to conceive of living that way.

Recap:  that I have some level of musical listening ability is learned; that I apply those things to progressive rock/music is just my innate passion - being drawn to this music is not something I can explain.

Of course, there's the whole topic of musical tastes changing over one's life and how previous experiences can shape the direction of one's musical journey...but that's for another blog. 

May I start by saying that this is an impressive blog and has got me truly thinking like few things have in recent weeks.

I guess a round of disembleing (spelling isnt one of my strong points, I think this may become apparent today) on my own history is called for which will tie in to say latter in the post and may give a better perspective of where my musical habbits come from.
<deep breath>
Before I was 16 I can honestly say that music was very much a non-entity for me, the only times I listened to it was when a good friend of mine would bring his cheap stereo round and we'ed listen to the radio whilst playing on the PlayStation (thoughs days that we stayed in, anyway). Unfortunatly, the radio station we always had on was Galaxy (, its a wonder I wasnt turned off from music altogether). I wouldnt say I hated it at the time, just didnt pay it any attention, I was 16 when I bought my first album, Red Hot Chili Peppers By the Way. I can remember that for about the next two years after this I was mildely into the realm of the then indy scene until a mate of mine lent me Dream Theaters Images and Words, closely followed by Scenes from a Memory and Symphony X'sThe Divine Wings of Tragedy and V: The New Mythology Suite. I was, without doubt, blown away on first listening to them as it was far and away very different and on first impression obviously far more complex than anything Coldplay was doing. Since then I've been on a bit of a quest to find more and more prog to listen to to the point where I am now buying about 3-5 albums per week, many of which I havnt heard a note of and am eagely anticipating the first listen. (Unserprisingly, this really seemed to kick off when I discovered this site, as my sig would attest to. Funny that)

As to the main question, the short answer is both, but again a bit more detail on me to give a betterview of my musical habits is needed. I may be about the only persson here that will say that the PS2 and GT3/4 have been instrumental in helpping me along with my prog appreciation, and no, its not for the sound track supplied by Feeder. I have distinct memories of spending time playing this game whilst having, in particular, The Mars Volta's De- Loused in the Comatorium on (around early 2005 then). Over those few months I became increasingly aware that my ability to concentrate on the minutae of the music as well as effectively play the game was increasing to the point that I can now do other thigs whilst listning to and concentrating a fair bit, though not totally, on the music (as I write this, I am listening to  Dark Suns Existence and, hopefully, making something resembaling sense here).

The point of my rambalings was to show that my ability to pick up on very different music to the norm, whether I have been exposed to something even remotly like it or not before, and like or at least appreciate is inate but my skill  for detailed listening was something built up over time (and entirely by accident).

Right, as for the seperate, and very interesting, points you've made:

1a. I wouldnt go so far to call my self a musician but I do attempt to play the bass (for as long as I've been into music I've seemed to focus on the rhythm section the most, whch might in part explain why it was Chili's that were the first band I ever bought a CD of) from time to time. I picked it up, really, in an attempt to emulate my favourite bands but it has since expanded to encompass a desire to have a better understanding of what it is I'm listening to beyond "that was interesting". In this regards I'm definitely with TGM:Orb and Dean in that prog can inspire people to take up musicianship to help them understand what their heroes are playing, though I doubt this would be the first and main consideration when picking up that axe for the first time, but I'd be surprised if it didnt creep in quickly. Conversly,  prog by its very nature would garner at least some proffesional interest from musicians and those that have even some small exerience of plonking a piano or picking a guitar may find it more imediatly attractive than those that dont have any musical experience.

1b. I am, without doubt, a usless singer who can not keep in tune, but I at least seem to have a half decent ear for things like this. Not sure whether thats actualy related, I think it would have more to do with how sensitive your hearing is and just how honest/ self critical you are.

2. Like you, my musical taste definitely runs to the darker side of prog far more than the lighter, nicer side (cant stand Yes, not too keen on the Flower Kings but love Van der Graaf Generator and King Crimson) but there are many, many prog listeners who are definitely the other way round. As to the general masses, I'd say that those that dont follow music as closely as most of us here do would much prefer "happier" music than something that was melencholic,  doom laden or disturbing, though aggressive might be a different matter (thinks of "Gangsta rap", but not too hard). I think that in the end it comes down to two things, the way they treat music listening and the personality of the indavidual. Thats two variables but each with a massive range of atributes that will be the determaning factors here.

3. With film/TV scores I get the feeling that people either take little notice of it or they associate it directly with something that is happening on screen, but may not care too much for it if is played on its own. For my part, I tend to ignore it almost all of the time, but then I think music in films is so overused and saturated that the only way I would notice it is when its not there. Ring is one of my favourite films in part because there is so little music. In fact, the only time I hafe taken more than a passing notice of a score is in the TV series Battlestar Galactica (the new one), which uses minimalism to stunning effect, but I'm rambeling now.

What bores me is the lack of a point to what is going on in music. Simple can be intersting if done in a clever way and with a clear goal, Pink Floyd were masters of this IMO but electronic bands are the complete oposite (generalisation here, I havnt explored the electronic genre much and been given little desire to do so from what I've heard).The opposite is true of complex music, which can get lost in its own technique and forget that clinical technique isnt the only aspect of music. In general, though, I would much rather listen to complex music than simple. I'll take this furthar and say that listening to music that I find simplistic to a fault (pop, R&B, rap, a lot of indie, nu metal, "emo") is depressing for me to the point where I find it difficult to work more than 4 or 5 hours at work (where its on all the time) and not leave in a thouroghly sh*tty mood.

In the end, I think I was always more predisposed to listen to prog, and by extent jazz and classical of which I am now beginning to explore, than pop from the beginning and probably has a lot more to do with nature rather than nurture as my dad's jazz days were long past by my earliest coherent memories and music actually played a near non existent role in my life before that first CD.


Edited by sleeper - July 28 2008 at 19:23

stonebeard wrote: I just listen to prog for the women. What, do you guys actually like this stuff.

Haha!

Well, us female prog listeners are obviously a cut above our unenlightened sisters (obviously! ), but if you want to impress us, you'd better be a bona fide virtuoso, pal.







[Er, well, decent personal hygiene and the ability to make eye contact will do for starters... ]