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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Music and the digital age
    Posted: July 17 2008 at 22:11

Update to Post: All songs removed from server due to lack of interest.... Big thanks to those who commented on the samples. Thumbs%20Up

Anybody else out there use midi to help them out with their guitar playing?

My wife and I have been mucking about with it (no pun intended). Check out the sample below, I think most of you will recognise the tune.

http://www.ashfordonline.com.au/images/test audio/OpenCar.mp3

It may even come as a surprise to some that the only 'live' sounds are the guitar and voice.

Digitised music has come of age and the tools available out there are fantastic for any guitarist who wants to learn, practice and play his/her favourite riffs with the full band backing. Midi itself has expanded into 1000's of instruments from the intial 128 standards, even the drums are starting to get the right feel. Tools such as Guitar Pro make learning your riffs a breeze. What's even better is all the files for these are readily available on the internet. Tools such as Sonar convert these files into audio waves and allow you to do your own recording with them.

What's your thoughts on this- is it a good thing that musicians are being replaced by digital counterparts (a sign of the digital age in everything)? Or are they just fantastic tools that allow solo players to practice and improve their skills?



Edited by cobb2 - September 06 2008 at 20:55
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2008 at 02:39
Well, I personally use Guitar Pro too and absolutely love it.
I think it's waste of time to download tabs and just learn off that, instead I transcribe music on it myself, which is of course far more productive for ear training and of course for figuring out for yourself what techniques are being used in the song and really it's just more rewarding that way anyway.
I think stuff like Drum machine software, virtual bass etc, are great tool for solo artists that can't afford to pay other musicians to record the parts or don't have friend's with the necessary amount of skill to pull it off.
Sometimes this comes at the cost of real musician dynamics, because a real drummer can add in things someone like me who is a guitarist wouldn't think of putting in the drum track.
I fortunately have a good enough understanding of bass guitar (even though I don't own one) that I could use virtual bass programs and still have it sound great, but drums, well I've often been told by some drummer mates the drum tracks I've made in the past sound a bit empty , because I honestly don't have that knowledge and intuitive skill to be able to recognize where a fill for example, might add or detract significantly from a section in a song.
When it comes to guitar though, I would rather record all my parts, rather than just record one and possibly use software for the other parts, and I'm sure many other guitarists or musicians that play instruments that would normally be used for multiple tracks within a song feel that way as well.
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2008 at 03:20

HughesJB4 - have you exported the Guitar Pro tracks out as midi and then imported them back into a studio program such as Sonar? Gives you access to more control over the instruments and sounds they are producing.



Edited by cobb2 - July 22 2008 at 21:21
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2008 at 08:04

Not much response...

See if I can get your interest, or incur your wrath with a few more samples.

http://www.ashfordonline.com.au/images/test audio/SacrificedSons.mp3

http://www.ashfordonline.com.au/images/test audio/Stargazer.mp3

http://www.ashfordonline.com.au/images/test audio/Kashmir.mp3

http://www.ashfordonline.com.au/images/test audio/ComfortablyNumb.mp3

Even at a sample rate of 192 these are long songs so they are quite large files. Anyway, thanks for those who take the time to listen.

I would very much appreciate some feed back (negative or positive).Smile



Edited by cobb2 - July 22 2008 at 08:05
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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 02:54
So far I've only listened to Stargazer, out of curiosity - interesting interpretation, using the female vocalist (or is that software? I don't mean to be rude, I'm just curious!) and very accurate. That must have taken a lot of work - good stuff!
 
The first thing I'd say about it is that it seems to lack the live energy and excitement of the Rainbow version - the performance needs to loosen up quite a lot, so you get the feeling of all the players really getting a groove on - don't worry so much about getting the exact notes and rhythms, just FEEL the piece!
 
The second is that the lead and rhythm guitars sound very synth-like indeed - not sure if that was the intention, but I really missed those stratospheric harmonic tones in the leads, and the gut-kicking crunch in the rhythms.
 
 
Otherwise, really good job on a very tricky piece.


Edited by Certif1ed - July 23 2008 at 02:55
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 03:11

Certif1ed- the vocalist is my wife. Her voice puts a whole new twist on some of my favorite songs.

There is only one instrument that is an actual live instrument, that is the guitar- the rest is midi (smoke and mirrors). Midi makes it impossible to loosen up- it sort of has that stay in time or get left behind attitude about it.

As a guitarist I am adequate, but a Blackmore I ain't. The tonal differences may be just the fact that it is a home recording, or the guitar is DI'd, or the fact that it is a gibson not a fender, or more likely all three.

edit: forgot to add- thanks for listening and taking the time to comment.



Edited by cobb2 - July 23 2008 at 03:20
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 04:49
^ don't know what you mean regarding MIDI ... of course you can loosen up. It's your choice if you quantize the input or not, isn't it?
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 05:30
I understand that quantisation will change the groove, but I don't want to swing the file so that it will sound completely different to the original. Quantisations main use has always been to place notes back into the right place when recording midi notes from a keyboard, ie fix up sloppy playing.
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 06:04
^ but then I don't understand why you claim that MIDI "makes it impossible to loosen up" ... it faithfully records everything you play on the keyboard. Velocity, aftertouch, ... everything which defines the performance.
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 06:20

You misinterpreting what I was trying to say in my reply to Certif1ed.

Certif1ed QUOTE

the performance needs to loosen up quite a lot, so you get the feeling of all the players really getting a groove on

END QUOTE

I was just trying to point out that there are no other players to get the feel with...
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 06:43
^ Ok. Still, although in a real band situation you might not have a click track to sync to, you'd have the drummer instead. As a singer, keyboardist/guitarist etc. you'll always have to sync to some external "clock".

BTW: Ableton has a nice feature: you can set the virtual instruments to introduce slight errors during playback. For example, you can design very rigid drum loops (perfectly quantized) and then let the hi-hat be slightly less accurate. It's a nice idea ...  
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 07:17
Originally posted by cobb2 cobb2 wrote:

HughesJB4 - have you exported the Guitar Pro tracks out as midi and then imported them back into a studio program such as Sonar? Gives you access to more control over the instruments and sounds they are producing.



If Sonar costs money, it's money I currently don't haveLOL
No I actually haven't exported GP5 tracks as MIDI really, don't have any programs to do so lol.
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 07:32

HughesJB4- can I guess how you got GuitarPro? Sonar would be gettable in the same way- if you know what I mean.

MikeE- Sonar has that same capability. Something about making it more realistic- drummers don't tap symbols in perfect time. This is also just using quantizing
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2008 at 07:56
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by cobb2 cobb2 wrote:

HughesJB4 - have you exported the Guitar Pro tracks out as midi and then imported them back into a studio program such as Sonar? Gives you access to more control over the instruments and sounds they are producing.



If Sonar costs money, it's money I currently don't haveLOL
No I actually haven't exported GP5 tracks as MIDI really, don't have any programs to do so lol.

 
You can use MIDI in Sony ACID, which is FREE; http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/download/trials/acidxpress
 
(I used it for my Metal project, in order to keep the overall costs down, just as they would have back in the day).
 
 
Originally posted by cobb2 cobb2 wrote:

I was just trying to point out that there are no other players to get the feel with...

 
I agree that quantisation isn't really the answer here - there's not much swing in Cozy Powell's playing!
 
What I was getting at was a more labour-intensive approach - this is, after all, something I'm also trying to get around in my HM project.
 
For my project it's a bit easier, as I can pretend to be a different instrumentalist and inject a few bits and pieces of rhythmic variation in, say, the bass and the second rhythm guitar - and the vocals too (in "untitled", for example, there is 4-part harmony, and I spent some time trying to get different vocal tones (from my voice, not through software) in order to give each part a slightly different character, and was not careful to make exact rhythmic duplications - in fact, some of the parts vary wildly.
 
In MIDI, what I used to do (and yes, this took ages) was to edit each part using the piano roll (I used to use a free demo of Cakewalk 3.0 that came with a magazine in 1992, I think it was), and tweak notes until the overall part sounded less like a machine. You then have to re-tweak when you alter other parts - but it's less intensive to do this for a rock band than, say, a 40-piece orchestra.
 
The big problem I had with the Cakewalk demo was that Save was disabled, so I had to do all my work hoping the computer would not crash, and dump the audio to cassette, losing my original MIDI's Cry
 
Still, with MIDI audio recognition software getting better and better, I'm hopeful of being able to re-MIDI my old cassettes and re-engineer the (in retrospect) horrible sounds of the MPU-401 and MT-32 emulators my sound card had.
 
Er... yeah - manually tweaking is the most reliable way, even if it is a lot of work.
 
Alternatively, load the MIDI into an audio-handling DAW and go over the parts with as many live instruments as you can - you could then double-track the MIDI against the audio, keeping the volume low and the EQ scooped, and adjust MIDI events selectively against your live performances.
 


Edited by Certif1ed - July 23 2008 at 08:08
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2008 at 23:49

Only Certif1ed has given any feedback on the songsCry

Come on guys- what would it hurt to give a little...

Tell me what think of the productions. Tell me how I may improve the sound. Part of learning how to record is getting as many people as possible to listen to the production and get their feedback and feelings on the sound. This doesn't have to be technical, but just how you felt about the listening experience.

please...
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mr70s View Drop Down
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Points: 121 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2008 at 08:19
Although I have some Dream Theater, I am not familiar with the track Sacrificed Sons. This is an excellent production. The instruments and vocals are balanced  - they have room to breathe in their own space  ( I didn't at any time feel the need to nudge the cursor along ! ).  I really like the measured, perhaps slightly constrained vocals that are quite alluring. Neat guitar parts also.
Well, is there room for improvement ? From my perspective, I would like to hear real bass and drums. Synthetic bass textures can work in some styles of music, similarly electronic drum sounds, but I think they are just sketching out the possibilities.
There is slight sibilance on the vocals, obviously try to nip this in the bud early on.  Also, here and there, the guitars are just slightly out of tune. I could be wrong, but at one point it reminds me of a nut that has not been set up correctly. (For example, string height not correct over the first fret).
I think this work shows a good understanding of the recording process, and it was a pleasure to listen to.


Edited by mr70s - August 15 2008 at 08:23
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cobb2 View Drop Down
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2008 at 19:38

Mr70s- thanks very much for taking the time to listen and then to put forward your thoughts. I agree completely on the synthetic analysis, but if I want to be able to play along with the music we are mucking about with I am stuck with having them generated by the Roland SonicCell via midi signals.

Also the tuning- guilty as charged. I have a tendency to practice for quite a while before recording and then forgeting to tweek the tuning before pressing record.

My wife will be pleased to read that you found her quite alluring...
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