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friso View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: This must end
    Posted: July 22 2008 at 04:48
I begin this topic because I'm a bit surprised by the negative apriciation of the recordings of some older (proto)prog records. I constantly here things like "Burn was the first well recorded record of Deep Purple" and such. This is just an misinterpretation.
 
- First of all those old recordings give the records there vibe. The sound of the early '70 and late '60 is different from that of the late '70 and especially the '80 and everything after that. This '70-sound is a bit hard to enojoy for young people and people who like polished music. I am 19 years old and like the early '70 sounds very much but I understand some do not. This however has nothing to do with bad recordings.
 
- Almost all old recordings have there instruments spread over the soundscape. The guitar left, drums on the right, vocals in the front and maybe the bassguitar in the back. This creates and illusion of space. This makes the music live. Maybe sometimes the instruments sound a bit distorted or not totally clean, it does create "a space". This dimension is sometimes lost with modern prog and even far out of sight with genres like progmetal (not all band included, but most of them). Modern recordings weren't made for stereo's in the livingroom but for mp3 players and cars. The difference is that als the instruments are recorded left and right, so they sound like they stand in the middle. ALL the instrument that is, so it's almost impossible to make an atmosphere. This sound may sound good in your car, but it's a pitty when you put your brandnew record in you stereo. The so called illusion of space gives you the feeling a band is playing in your room, especially if you have a good stereo. This makes the old recordings so warm!
 
- Old recordings were recorded for vinyl. The cd was to expensive until somewhere in the end of the '80 and so all the recordings before that time were made for the LP record. However, the recordings made before the cd was invented were put on cd too in the '90. This proces was done with haste and so details in the music were lost. A remaster should be more then a higher bass sound that actually kills the atmosphere of the sound. Space is created with treble, for the human ear can't hear were bass is coming from! This makes a lot of old recordings sound better on vinyl.
 
- Another problem is that the recordcompanies wanted to record as loud as possible so their song would sound louder on the radio. When a song is louder then the others it gets attention. If you are going to press a LP record louder you take more space so they had to stop at a point otherwise the music wouldn't fit anymore. With the cd however this process of recording louder is an endless proces with no time on the cd lost, but loss on music quality. Some tones do not fit on the cd anymore and are lost in the process. Old music is sensitive for this proces and so the recording may sound bad consumed on a cd.
 
- There is only warmth that makes music beatifull. No keyboard as ever sounded like a real mellotron!
 
So what I want to say is that one should think twice before saying old records were recorded badly. A lot of produces could learn from the old masters like Alan Parsens!
I'm guitarist and songwriter for the prog-related band Mother Bass. Find us at http://www.motherbass.com. I also enter stages throughout the Netherlands performing my poetry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2008 at 05:09
Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:

I begin this topic because I'm a bit surprised by the negative apriciation of the recordings of some older (proto)prog records. I constantly here things like "Burn was the first well recorded record of Deep Purple" and such. This is just an misinterpretation.
 
- First of all those old recordings give the records there vibe. The sound of the early '70 and late '60 is different from that of the late '70 and especially the '80 and everything after that. This '70-sound is a bit hard to enojoy for young people and people who like polished music. I am 19 years old and like the early '70 sounds very much but I understand some do not. This however has nothing to do with bad recordings.
 
- Almost all old recordings have there instruments spread over the soundscape. The guitar left, drums on the right, vocals in the front and maybe the bassguitar in the back. This creates and illusion of space. This makes the music live. Maybe sometimes the instruments sound a bit distorted or not totally clean, it does create "a space". This dimension is sometimes lost with modern prog and even far out of sight with genres like progmetal (not all band included, but most of them). Modern recordings weren't made for stereo's in the livingroom but for mp3 players and cars. The difference is that als the instruments are recorded left and right, so they sound like they stand in the middle. ALL the instrument that is, so it's almost impossible to make an atmosphere. This sound may sound good in your car, but it's a pitty when you put your brandnew record in you stereo. The so called illusion of space gives you the feeling a band is playing in your room, especially if you have a good stereo. This makes the old recordings so warm!

I don't think that's true at all. First of all: All stereo recordings - even those from the 70s - are usually checked for mono compatibility during mixdown ... otherwise they wouldn't sound good on cheap radios. Today this even less important than in the 70s, as today even cheap radios are stereo ... but still. Secondly: Of course also modern bands make use of stereo imaging - for example if a track features two rhythm guitars usually one will be panned left and the other one right.  The drums will also be stereophonic, regardless of whether they were created artificially on the computer, or miked and recorded in the "old school" way.
 
- Old recordings were recorded for vinyl. The cd was to expensive until somewhere in the end of the '80 and so all the recordings before that time were made for the LP record. However, the recordings made before the cd was invented were put on cd too in the '90. This proces was done with haste and so details in the music were lost. A remaster should be more then a higher bass sound that actually kills the atmosphere of the sound. Space is created with treble, for the human ear can't hear were bass is coming from! This makes a lot of old recordings sound better on vinyl.

Still, you can't blame CD for those engineering mistakes. If anything, it means that you should listen to old recordings on vinyl, or at least be careful with late 80s/early 90s releases of remastered classics.
 
- Another problem is that the recordcompanies wanted to record as loud as possible so their song would sound louder on the radio. When a song is louder then the others it gets attention. If you are going to press a LP record louder you take more space so they had to stop at a point otherwise the music wouldn't fit anymore. With the cd however this process of recording louder is an endless proces with no time on the cd lost, but loss on music quality. Some tones do not fit on the cd anymore and are lost in the process. Old music is sensitive for this proces and so the recording may sound bad consumed on a cd.

The loudness war clearly predates digital formats. It's a general problem which exists because most music isn't made to listen to in a silent room, but also on radio. Today it would be no problem to build radios and hi-fi systems which can do the compression/limiting (the tools which increase the loudness) on the fly, during playback ... that way the music could always be mixed with plenty of headroom, and if the listening situation calls for compression and loudness then it could simply be achieved by pressing a button on the radio. However, this is not how the situation evolved ... unfortunately.
 
- There is only warmth that makes music beatifull. No keyboard as ever sounded like a real mellotron!

Ironically mellotrons were created as a replacement for real strings. The mellotron obviously doesn't sound like real strings ... in fact compared to strings from a modern sampler it sounds horrible. The cool thing is that its sound was so unique that it became an instrument of its own ... people realised that in many situations the mellotron did a better job than real strings.
 
So what I want to say is that one should think twice before saying old records were recorded badly. A lot of produces could learn from the old masters like Alan Parsens!

I would never say that. But I also insist that new records aren't recorded badly either. Maybe some of them, but there are many examples for excellent engineering today.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2008 at 05:18

I love playing my old vinyl LP's on my antiquated (late 70's) analogue equipment. IMO there is a warmth to the sound that does seem to be missing from CD's.

As for quality of the different mediums: There was crap engineering, production and mastering on some LP's, just as there is crap engineering, production and mastering on some CD's. I have examples of both, especially on CD's where older vinyl works are remastered and re-issued. Crap is crap no matter how you slice it and dice it.
 
"Without prog, life would be a mistake."



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2008 at 22:06
if it sounds good, fine

if it sounds bad, well, then it sounds bad

thats it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2008 at 22:54
Modern music is, objectively, recorded with better quality than the past.  I think that people tend to prefer old recordings just because some people like the sound of the compression that tape naturally adds to music.  Sure, a lot of music is recorded well but then overbumped until it sounds like crap (to make it louder on the radio), but this tends to be pop music and not niche stuff like prog.  The best-recorded music of today has better sound quality than the best-recorded music of the 1970's, and modern research suggests that the only audible difference between a turntable and a 256 mb/s mp3 is the pops and clicks on vinyl.  

Edited by rileydog22 - August 05 2008 at 22:55

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2008 at 23:00
i'll admit, some of the 70s King Crimson albums turned me off because of the sound quality, but i got over this real quick lol

but albums like CTTE, Relayer, some Stevie Wonder albums, and some jazz-fusion albums sound like they were recorded 2 days ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2008 at 04:33
Kingfriso, I agree with your basic premise that old recordings sound warmer, but as you say, thats all down to taste. Some people dont want that warmth from their music, they want clarity and dynamics that showcase the intricacies of the musicianship. If someone wanted to make an album that souned like it was made in 1972, they could, even using modern digital technology. Of course, to discerning ears like out we'd be able to tell it wasn't an analogue recording...maybe..

Can yo tell the difference between a real Mellotron and an 'M-Tron'? I like to think I can


I think, although you make a number of generalisations, especially about mp3, and what music is reciorded for these days, I think artists do generally record with quality stereo sysems in mind. mp3 is a convenience tool, in terms of how much music you can store in one location, and how you can organise and playback those files, but mp3, will never be a superior playback substitiute for older or younger listeners, who take music seriously. Any type of music. My experience of mp3, hasn't been totally negative, but generally there is loss of quality, certainly at the 'top end' from most mp3 players, or PC/mac based media players. Listen to the best produced piece of music you have, in both formats, one after the other and you'll hear the difference.

But basically, there are only good or bad recording in terms the definition of the instruments and the quality of the mixing, what people prefer in terms of clinical digital, or organic analogue is their own choice. I've moaned enough about moden recordngs in the past, I've just come to accept that if I dont like them, I dont have to listen to them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 08:27
Originally posted by T.Rox T.Rox wrote:

I love playing my old vinyl LP's on my antiquated (late 70's) analogue equipment. IMO there is a warmth to the sound that does seem to be missing from CD's.

 
 
Deep Purple In Rock on the original vinyl is a horrible muddy mix (as is the original CD release) - just listen to the remastered CD version for clarity. 


Edited by Dick Heath - August 18 2008 at 08:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2008 at 09:39
^I disagree that it's horrible... somewhat muddy, maybe - but definitely no worse than other similar rock bands of the time - label mates Bakerloo, for example. In comparison to, say, Meddle, it lacks a certain finesse in production - but I kinda think that's part of the point. You can tell that the analogue equipment is being abused in a way that you cannot abuse digital equipment - and that's fun.
 
The first Harvest (pre-EMI) pressing of "In Rock" sounds magical to my ears - but YMMV, of course.


Edited by Certif1ed - August 18 2008 at 09:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 16:01
Gabriel-era Genesis albums suffered from poor sound (the last couple were somewhat better). The remastered versions are essential.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 16:23
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by T.Rox T.Rox wrote:

I love playing my old vinyl LP's on my antiquated (late 70's) analogue equipment. IMO there is a warmth to the sound that does seem to be missing from CD's.

 
 
Deep Purple In Rock on the original vinyl is a horrible muddy mix (as is the original CD release) - just listen to the remastered CD version for clarity. 
 
i agree - this album always had me fiddling and upgrading more than any other album, i thought it was just me... Ermm
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2008 at 21:10
Man, I have the first In Rock cd release - It's worst than the LP.

I prefer CDs to LPs by some casual reasons: easier to organize and most durable when in contact with not-so-careful hands. The loss of the cover art is irreplaceble, though.
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