How important are lyrics in prog?

Ideally the lyrics are inseparable from the music and the concept. 

MonkeyphoneAlex wrote: I'm going to try to streamlne this debate a bit and pose the question - Do lyrics accompany music, or does music accompany lyrics?

Very good question! As I said in my post of yesterday evening, I think in the case of most prog bands or artists it is the lyrics that accompany the music (with some notable exceptions, like VDGG, but they are admittedly quite rare). Conversely, in the case of singer-songwriters (a great Italian tradition btw) it is the music that accompanies the lyrics, so unobtrusive as to be almost non-existent.

Weston wrote: Ideally the lyrics are inseparable from the music and the concept.  For example, I always felt that in Tull's "From a Deadbeat to an Old Greaser" the first 2/3 of the song is one long run on sentence similar to the cliche' beatnik writing it is referencing.  At the very end Ray, the protagonist, rejects the reminiscing old beatnik as being before his time even though Ray himself is out of date.  It's a brilliant concise storytelling moment that few mainstream pop songs can rival.  Of course there's nothing overtly prog about the song other than it's run-on structure without the usual verse / chorus.   I think many prog lyrics play with words, making intricate verbal acrobatics the same way the music makes rhythmic and motif acrobatics.  Gentle Giant did this a lot, and more recently King Crimson as in "You have to be happy with what you have to be happy with,"  or "The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum."  These word games fit perfectly with the music and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Great point there, and it's also why I no longer evaluate lyrics outside the context of the music. (with a couple of exceptions)

Forgive me for being a prog snob and finding these lyirics more interesting than pop hits like the current Katy Perry hit "I kissed a girl and I liked it . . ."  or even hits from 250 years ago when Handel's most famous lyric went something like, "Halleluja, halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - halleluja -  . . .etc."

That is pretty much self-explanatory, because prog is already by definition (as a Platonic ideal, at least) higher-concept than pop so it's not surprising that the lyrics usually follow suit.

depends on the band: for  bands like Van der Graaf Generator or Rush, I think that the meaning of the lyrics is very important. However, for bands like The Mars Volta or Yes, the most important thing may not necessarily be the meaning of the words, but how they sound. Sometimes I find it better to ignore lyrics completely (newer Dream Theater for example).

It depends. If the lyrics are important for the plot or something, then great, but if there are just random songs, it depends of the song. Usually i only REALLY dig song sung in portuguese, since i can't REALLY find THAT beautiful poetry in other languages, except mine, with notable exceptions.

agProgger wrote: The number one thing that gets me with lyrics is this: Bad lyrics that were written in such a way as to make you think that the author thought they were great or thought provoking. This annoys me to no end, and it's why I hate Prophets of War so much.  Also, there are some parts of Pain of Salvation lyrics that annoy the crap out of me because they're so pompous, arrogant, and mislead, yet they think they're so smart.

I quite agree with this... in my experience, bands (and people ) who try way too hard to cultivate an intellectual image usually end up looking much more stupid than those who don't give a damn. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous for a prog fan to say this, but this is what turns me off most newer prog bands. (as in, formed in the nineties or later) This is one of the things I meant when I said in another thread that music has gotten way too self-conscious for its own good within the last 20 years.

If you ask me, I would certainly have to respond that lyrics are a crucial part in every music genre, although in some genres they're less predictable to be more involved in uncanny, intellectual, slightly philosophical and self-reasoned components. But in Progressive musical genres, since they tend to be more experimental and turned on by the complexity of the composition, those who make the music tend to think that the complexity and intelligence of the lyrics need to correspond to the same complex structure of the composition in hand but end up making non-sense. But in some specific prog cases, that does not happen at all... For instance, when we talk about; Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Symphony X,  or even a more complex math prog band called The Dillinger Escape Plan; we think of high technical performance/epic traits and low lyricisms and/or low criticism/controversy level. But when we talk about bands like; Pain Of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Uriah Heep, Van Der Graff Generator, The Flower Kings, Gentle Giant, Radiohead, The Moody Blues and The Mars Volta; we perhaps make a more plausible assumption of their lyrics, just for the reason that they are casual yet extraordinary, or they have the ambiance and the poetic touch the non-lyrical bands lack, furthermore, they may have political, social, philosophical, compensative and sometimes containing big fantasies(reminiscent mainly from Power Metal bands). And  to conclude this, I must say that each case has its own functionalities, qualities and flaws, and we must not restrain the prog lyrics and consequently say that they are not as accomplished  as the lyrics that the other bands make...

I don't really care for the lyrics, they add a great dimension for the concept, but English is not my first language and very often I don't take the time to understand the lyrics of a song. Even when I listen to a french (my native language) song, I don't put many attention into the lyrics.

In my own songs I often find the lyrics and vocals sometimes hinder the music and I end up dropping them out and making an instrumental.  I would say that if the song needs lyrics, then they better be well written, otherwise why are they there? try omitting them...  I hear a lot of songs that are vocally driven with poor lyrics, mostly from the last decade or so.  A prog band with amazing lyrics is Magellan.

 One benefit of  lyrics, at least to me, is during the course of the day, someone will say something that matches a particular song phrase, causing me to remember the song itself. Not too many people are humming prog songs causing the same reaction.
 Seriously, I believe the music and the lyrics go hand in hand, in conveying the feeling or tone, emotion of the song.  I think this particularly true with metal.