How important are lyrics in prog?

If you ask me, I would certainly have to respond that lyrics are a crucial part in every music genre, although in some genres they're less predictable to be more involved in uncanny, intellectual, slightly philosophical and self-reasoned components. But in Progressive musical genres, since they tend to be more experimental and turned on by the complexity of the composition, those who make the music tend to think that the complexity and intelligence of the lyrics need to correspond to the same complex structure of the composition in hand but end up making non-sense. But in some specific prog cases, that does not happen at all... For instance, when we talk about; Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Symphony X,  or even a more complex math prog band called The Dillinger Escape Plan; we think of high technical performance/epic traits and low lyricisms and/or low criticism/controversy level. But when we talk about bands like; Pain Of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Uriah Heep, Van Der Graff Generator, The Flower Kings, Gentle Giant, Radiohead, The Moody Blues and The Mars Volta; we perhaps make a more plausible assumption of their lyrics, just for the reason that they are casual yet extraordinary, or they have the ambiance and the poetic touch the non-lyrical bands lack, furthermore, they may have political, social, philosophical, compensative and sometimes containing big fantasies(reminiscent mainly from Power Metal bands). And  to conclude this, I must say that each case has its own functionalities, qualities and flaws, and we must not restrain the prog lyrics and consequently say that they are not as accomplished  as the lyrics that the other bands make...

agProgger wrote: The number one thing that gets me with lyrics is this: Bad lyrics that were written in such a way as to make you think that the author thought they were great or thought provoking. This annoys me to no end, and it's why I hate Prophets of War so much.  Also, there are some parts of Pain of Salvation lyrics that annoy the crap out of me because they're so pompous, arrogant, and mislead, yet they think they're so smart.

I quite agree with this... in my experience, bands (and people ) who try way too hard to cultivate an intellectual image usually end up looking much more stupid than those who don't give a damn. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous for a prog fan to say this, but this is what turns me off most newer prog bands. (as in, formed in the nineties or later) This is one of the things I meant when I said in another thread that music has gotten way too self-conscious for its own good within the last 20 years.

It depends. If the lyrics are important for the plot or something, then great, but if there are just random songs, it depends of the song. Usually i only REALLY dig song sung in portuguese, since i can't REALLY find THAT beautiful poetry in other languages, except mine, with notable exceptions.

depends on the band: for  bands like Van der Graaf Generator or Rush, I think that the meaning of the lyrics is very important. However, for bands like The Mars Volta or Yes, the most important thing may not necessarily be the meaning of the words, but how they sound. Sometimes I find it better to ignore lyrics completely (newer Dream Theater for example).

Weston wrote: Ideally the lyrics are inseparable from the music and the concept.  For example, I always felt that in Tull's "From a Deadbeat to an Old Greaser" the first 2/3 of the song is one long run on sentence similar to the cliche' beatnik writing it is referencing.  At the very end Ray, the protagonist, rejects the reminiscing old beatnik as being before his time even though Ray himself is out of date.  It's a brilliant concise storytelling moment that few mainstream pop songs can rival.  Of course there's nothing overtly prog about the song other than it's run-on structure without the usual verse / chorus.   I think many prog lyrics play with words, making intricate verbal acrobatics the same way the music makes rhythmic and motif acrobatics.  Gentle Giant did this a lot, and more recently King Crimson as in "You have to be happy with what you have to be happy with,"  or "The world's my oyster soup kitchen floor wax museum."  These word games fit perfectly with the music and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Great point there, and it's also why I no longer evaluate lyrics outside the context of the music. (with a couple of exceptions)

Forgive me for being a prog snob and finding these lyirics more interesting than pop hits like the current Katy Perry hit "I kissed a girl and I liked it . . ."  or even hits from 250 years ago when Handel's most famous lyric went something like, "Halleluja, halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - halleluja - halleluja -  . . .etc."

That is pretty much self-explanatory, because prog is already by definition (as a Platonic ideal, at least) higher-concept than pop so it's not surprising that the lyrics usually follow suit.

MonkeyphoneAlex wrote: I'm going to try to streamlne this debate a bit and pose the question - Do lyrics accompany music, or does music accompany lyrics?

Very good question! As I said in my post of yesterday evening, I think in the case of most prog bands or artists it is the lyrics that accompany the music (with some notable exceptions, like VDGG, but they are admittedly quite rare). Conversely, in the case of singer-songwriters (a great Italian tradition btw) it is the music that accompanies the lyrics, so unobtrusive as to be almost non-existent.

Ideally the lyrics are inseparable from the music and the concept. 

Weston wrote: MisterProg2112 wrote:   I can see where you're coming from, but Rush's lyrics are not all that bad. I mean sure, there are quite a few that are ridiculous (ie: "I Think I'm Going Bald", "Tom Sawyer", "Working Man", "The Trees ")   ??  I really enjoy "The Trees" lyrics.   They seem to predict our (the US' anyway) current politically correct insanity of holding back achievers so that no one gets left behind.     I find Neil Peart one of the best lyricists in music today with memorable lines like "Pin the donkeys on her tail . . ."  from Superconducter about the state of the entertainment industry.  Or "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled"  from Territories.  Then there's Losing It which never fails to make me tear up a bit.

"The Trees just shake their heads "  ... ?   


Edited by Yorkie X - June 22 2008 at 11:05

MisterProg2112 wrote:   I can see where you're coming from, but Rush's lyrics are not all that bad. I mean sure, there are quite a few that are ridiculous (ie: "I Think I'm Going Bald", "Tom Sawyer", "Working Man", "The Trees ")

It depends on the artist really. In the early days, prog lyricists could be seperated into threee catgories. there were the storytellers (Peter Gabriel, Neil Peart), who combined mythology and literature with their own ideas to convey some sort of moral or message, then you had lyricists like Roger Waters and Peter Hamill, who wrote lyrics that were very introspective and personal. In these cases the the lyrics were oftten written before the music, as the message was just as important or sometimes even more important than the music.

Then you had the third category, artists like Gentle Giant, who generally wrote the lyrics after the melody, and more often than not chose words that were the easiest to rhyme and/or sing. If you're doing a four part vocal polyrythm, you don't want to be singing words that slip off the tounge awkwardly, which is why we have lyrics like "all man in each man/she can see she can".

I think modern prog has some of the best lyrics, because they more often than not combine elements of all three styles. On the Spock's Beard "Making Of" documentaries, when Neal Morse is writing lyrics, he usually has a general idea of what the songs about, but when he has a few ideas for what line should come next, he'll sometimes pick the lyrics that make sense, or he'll drop those in favor of something that's easier to sing.