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Topic ClosedBritish Prog is the best??
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mrgd View Drop Down
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Points: 822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 00:45
After a quick review of my geography/history, I mean that I would like to include all of Ireland in my admiration society [not just the north which, by implication, I have done ].

[ I appear to be coming down with something again . Old habits die hard]
Looking still the same after all these years...
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Points: 699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 00:15
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

[QUOTE=Valdez]Originally posted by tszirmay
 Ya gotta read what I replied to a similar comment earlier on the page . This was my response :
 
You are absolutely correct! I used the term "motored" and not "created" because american blues, jazz, gospel, rhythm 'n blues and soul were the sparkplug that fueled (that's the word) the Beatles, Who, Stones, Zeppelin, Cream, Kinks etc..... like you stated.
 
 
First there were the American influences and Then the European upgrade . As you say they prettied it up and in prog's case perhaps added some conservatory students who wanted to ROCK (and get laid!) .LOL
 
 
Yeah,  I read it a bit too late...  all's good. agreed!
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Points: 822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 23:37
Good, better, best - who's to say. Not I ,but I sure do like it.

Now, prog in Aus. in the 70's . You gotta remember, it's all ass -about here downunder . No wonder we were slow on the uptake, but we did get it happening with some interesting little bands, defying the famous cultural cringe syndrome that pervaded those days.

My admiration extends to the UK though, not just the Brits, as great as they were/are !
Looking still the same after all these years...
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 23:28
Thank goodness somebody jumped on that initially "Beatles built Psych" claim. I was going to but, I'm late. Thank you.

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


Originally posted by PinkPangolin PinkPangolin wrote:

For more information and to keep this battle going - I kind of got the idea from a Q Classic magazine entitled "Pink Floyd and the Story of Prog Rock" (2005 issue) in which Cedric Bixler-Zavala (an American/ Mexican type chappy) was quoted to say prog rock "has to be British. They're the cream of the crop"Ignorant, eh? (PS one of my friends is Norwegian!)I expected to offend some Americans (shucks)
hahahah.. well.. .famous or not Cedric doesn't know sh*t for prog LOL


Go to 2:40http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbhSp2LF5Go
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 22:14
Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay

This is kind of a funny thread because rock music in general was motored by the British Invasion anyway.
 
 
Sorry but it's the other way around... ask any of the British "Invaders"  who their influences were and you will find Little Richard,  Chuck Berry , Bill Haley,  Carl Perkins,  even Elvis.  These ROCK artists were the ones they were listening to in their early teens.  What the Brits did to good ol' rock n' roll  was to "Civilise" it by bringing schooled musical training into the equation,  more intelligent and introspective lyrics, even "STRINGS" for crying out loud.  The Brits took rock and prettied it up quite a bit. Made it better IMO.
 
Hey Exxon! Ya gotta read what I replied to a similar comment earlier on the page . This was my response :
 
You are absolutely correct! I used the term "motored" and not "created" because american blues, jazz, gospel, rhythm 'n blues and soul were the sparkplug that fueled (that's the word) the Beatles, Who, Stones, Zeppelin, Cream, Kinks etc..... like you stated.
 
 
First there were the American influences and Then the European upgrade . As you say they prettied it up and in prog's case perhaps added some conservatory students who wanted to ROCK (and get laid!) .LOL


Edited by tszirmay - June 17 2008 at 22:15
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 22:01
AngryYes! We better not start trying to defend each other's country's contributions to prog music or somebody here will have to...Cry 
 
Let's say the British were the original pretentious artists; the Germans a lot of beer-induced experimentalists; the French were anti-social language-haters who had to communicate in new tongues; Italians the most fertile ones; and Americans the ones who waited till everybody else died so they could actually be at the top of the prog mountain... holding hands with the Swedes, the Canadians and some LatinAmericans.. with the notable exception of my country men, of course..... Tongue
 
 


Edited by The T - June 17 2008 at 22:02
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Points: 65266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 21:16
this is a music discussion guys, let's keep politics OUT of it, please..  and I think it's been shown in this thread the enormous contributions and impact music from the U.S. has had
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 21:11
Well that's how I see some people act. I mean I know our leader is not the best Smile, but geez. I've even read some arguments before saying how we are descended from the dregs of British society that came over to America, so we "obviously" have an inferior gene pool. I've heard the same sh*t about Australia too.


Edited by Deathrabbit - June 17 2008 at 21:13
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Points: 699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 20:49
I'm certain that no-one thinks for a minute that Americans have inferior genetic code. lol.
After all most of us are descended from Brits not much more than 200 years ago.  Fuxi could be my cousin.
 
I'm sure it was the industry and the economy and the "Accents".
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 20:43
The crux of the matter is that in the 70s you could be a prog band and still put food on the table if you were in the UK, but not in the US. Maybe it was the industry; maybe Americans have inferior genetic code. I tend to think you're a bigoted moron if subscribe to the second one.
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Points: 19 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 19:02
My collection has mostly English prog bands, so in my opinion they're the best obviously.
 
Peter Hammill / Van Der Graaf Generator
Genesis
Yes
Pink Floyd
King Crimson
 
Marillion
Arena
Fish
 
Then I have all of Rush and Neil Young, too.
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Points: 4981 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Just for the record: the reason why I have mostly reviewed British albums is that, on a merely personal level, I tend to enjoy British bands more. However, this has NOTHING to do with British prog bands being objectively 'better' (provided such a thing can be proved in the arts).
 


Well one of the most important "objective" criteria is influence and in that regard, the British are objectively better than every other prog scene except maybe the Germans, and that's only if you count influence on non-prog music.
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Points: 699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 16:34
Spector ... Pure Pop  http://www.spectropop.com/hspector2.html
Dylan... Folk 
Chuck Berry ...Rock and roll (i'll give ya that one... "My Ding-a-ling ... everybody sing!")


Edited by Valdez - June 17 2008 at 17:25
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 15:24
Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmayThis is kind of a funny thread because rock music in general was motored by the British Invasion anyway.
 

 

Sorry but it's the other way around... ask any of the British "Invaders"  who their influences were and you will find Little Richard,  Chuck Berry , Bill Haley,  Carl Perkins,  even Elvis.  These ROCK artists were the ones they were listening to in their early teens.  What the Brits did to good ol' rock n' roll  was to "Civilise" it by bringing schooled musical training into the equation,  more intelligent and introspective lyrics, even "STRINGS" for crying out loud.  The Brits took rock and prettied it up quite a bit. Made it better IMO.


Weren't there loads of strings on Phil Spector's most spectacular hit singles? And didn't Bob Dylan show those British invaders how to write clever lyrics? Few prog lyrics are as intelligent or as memorable as Chuck Berry's, anyway...
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Points: 699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 13:38
Originally posted by tszirmay

This is kind of a funny thread because rock music in general was motored by the British Invasion anyway.
 
 
Sorry but it's the other way around... ask any of the British "Invaders"  who their influences were and you will find Little Richard,  Chuck Berry , Bill Haley,  Carl Perkins,  even Elvis.  These ROCK artists were the ones they were listening to in their early teens.  What the Brits did to good ol' rock n' roll  was to "Civilise" it by bringing schooled musical training into the equation,  more intelligent and introspective lyrics, even "STRINGS" for crying out loud.  The Brits took rock and prettied it up quite a bit. Made it better IMO.
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Points: 699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 11:39
I'm from California and my ears and my brain tell me British prog has been, by far, way ahead of the rest of the world  with German prog following a close second.  I personally do not care for much of the Italian slant but I know it's in the upper leagues.  Some good stuff coming from West of the Rockies lately too.
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 08:11
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Just for the record: the reason why I have mostly reviewed British albums is that, on a merely personal level, I tend to enjoy British bands more. However, this has NOTHING to do with British prog bands being objectively 'better' (provided such a thing can be proved in the arts).


Not an easy matter. I enjoy Haydn's symphonies more than Mahler's, so for me, obviously Haydn is a greater composer than Mahler! (Of course Haydn's also written superb string quartets, oratorios, masses etc., which Mahler hasn't.) On the other hand, my sister-in-law is married to a conductor, who really loves heavy romantic stuff, especially Mahler and Tchaikovsky. In his view, Haydn is probably just a minor composer... Don't we all think this way?
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 07:53
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Just for the record: the reason why I have mostly reviewed British albums is that, on a merely personal level, I tend to enjoy British bands more. However, this has NOTHING to do with British prog bands being objectively 'better' (provided such a thing can be proved in the arts).
 
 
 
"Best" requires qualification, as in Best in what way?
 
It can be objectively proven, as long as you have set criteria in advance.
 
 
Example statement, "Gentle Giant are the best at using contrapuntal styles of writing".
 
 
Here, I've set the criteria being measured as contrapuntal writing - which can be objectively proven by identifying the different contrapuntal styles and devices, and how they are used.
 
To do this, obviously, requires a working knowledge of Counterpoint - here's a start. It's a simple concept, with complex possibilities and ways to measure it, especially when it comes to the "how they are used" bit.
 
For counterpoint, Bach is widely held to be one of the best benchmarks, and through a thorough understanding of what Bach did, we can assess other examples of counterpoint on the same terms - ie, we're not particularly interested to see someone rehashing Bach, but if the principles are used in a new way, then that can be interesting.
 
We can infer from this single measurement that, if complexity is a prized attribute of Prog, then Gentle Giant exceed and are therefore a suitable candidate for "Best" from this perspective, since counterpoint can be horrendously complex.
 
 
We can use other ways of measuring complexity too, of course - depending on what aspect of the music we are examining - and using a suitable benchmark. There's no point in restricting yourself, since music is limitless, but benchmarks are as good a way as any.
 
You can't measure objectively unless you have some degree of objective understanding in the first place - and you cannot truly understand how it is done (you might even believe that it is not possible) until you've truly explored and understood the principles.
 
But you can get ideas through simple study.

Van der Graaf Generator were no slouches either when it came to counterpoint, by the way. "Meurglys III, the Songwriter's Guild" actually begins as a fugue, for example. and there is an abundance of counterpoint in Peter Hammill's opera "The Fall of the House of Usher", the album which in my opinion sets the benchmark for counterpoint in prog.
another good example for counterpoint is the "Bolero" part in King Crimson's "Lizard"


Edited by BaldJean - June 17 2008 at 08:01


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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 04:45
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Just for the record: the reason why I have mostly reviewed British albums is that, on a merely personal level, I tend to enjoy British bands more. However, this has NOTHING to do with British prog bands being objectively 'better' (provided such a thing can be proved in the arts).
 
 
 
"Best" requires qualification, as in Best in what way?
 
It can be objectively proven, as long as you have set criteria in advance.
 
 
Example statement, "Gentle Giant are the best at using contrapuntal styles of writing".
 
 
Here, I've set the criteria being measured as contrapuntal writing - which can be objectively proven by identifying the different contrapuntal styles and devices, and how they are used.
 
To do this, obviously, requires a working knowledge of Counterpoint - here's a start. It's a simple concept, with complex possibilities and ways to measure it, especially when it comes to the "how they are used" bit.
 
For counterpoint, Bach is widely held to be one of the best benchmarks, and through a thorough understanding of what Bach did, we can assess other examples of counterpoint on the same terms - ie, we're not particularly interested to see someone rehashing Bach, but if the principles are used in a new way, then that can be interesting.
 
We can infer from this single measurement that, if complexity is a prized attribute of Prog, then Gentle Giant exceed and are therefore a suitable candidate for "Best" from this perspective, since counterpoint can be horrendously complex.
 
 
We can use other ways of measuring complexity too, of course - depending on what aspect of the music we are examining - and using a suitable benchmark. There's no point in restricting yourself, since music is limitless, but benchmarks are as good a way as any.
 
You can't measure objectively unless you have some degree of objective understanding in the first place - and you cannot truly understand how it is done (you might even believe that it is not possible) until you've truly explored and understood the principles.
 
But you can get ideas through simple study.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2008 at 04:25
Just for the record: the reason why I have mostly reviewed British albums is that, on a merely personal level, I tend to enjoy British bands more. However, this has NOTHING to do with British prog bands being objectively 'better' (provided such a thing can be proved in the arts).
 
My first taste of prog came through the great Italian bands of the Seventies, and I discovered British prog only a few years later, through some friends of mine. After a number of years spent listening almost exclusively to music performed in the English language, in recent times I have rediscovered Italian prog bands thanks to their # 1 fan here (not to mention future husband). Since he has a vast collection of RPI CDs, in the future I will very probably review at least some of them.
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