Virtuosity vs Arrogance

spookytooth wrote: You can't dance to most prog music

I disagree, you can dance to ANY music! as proven by my gf. she even danced to acid mothers temple, though it was a bit of a stretch......I think the only thing you can't dance to is Metal Machine Music, unless you do some sort of weird robot dance but that wouldn't be so much dancing to it as just using it as inspiration to dance mechanically, so it doens't count!

Myself, a teenager or at least almost, I can't see my way dancing with prog, but that's not something I would take a star or something from the prog genre. Although with prog I can Air any instrument I want, and that's hell of fun as dancing, IMO.
If I wanna dance I usually pick some disco(not an entire album) like Le Freak, Get Down Tonight, or pick some new wave or pop like Inxs, or Simply Red, with this music I dance like the Devil(huh?)
Pittily in my country, we have some of the WORST music to dance. It's called cumbia and reaggeton, don't be confused by reggae, it's meanless lyrics, the rythms are all the same, and the voice are horrible. The lyrics are all about sex, can you believe it? All my friends love it!!??
I can't dance that. My friends can, and they don't realise that they can't change rythm cause all the songs are the same!!
I do enjoy DANCING pop music on parties, also electronic music, I don't like it, but it's kinda cool to dance that, at least it has some rythm.
Well, I'm glad we don't have Rap on my country, cause I know in North America they dance with that, no offense, please.

Astute! We must remember though that arrogance exists in all forms of music, as does virtuosity! Often when someone is good at something they feel the need to shamelessly lord it over other people, regardless of what they do. But there are those who have both great facility on their instrument and can have a conversation with "normal" folks as well. Perhaps we can hear that in the music they create? Hopefully....

There are so many different sub genres to prog you could never get bored of it . I could very well listen to just prog but I do like a variety of music:

DJPuffyLemon wrote: spookytooth wrote: You can't dance to most prog music I disagree, you can dance to ANY music! as proven by my gf. she even danced to acid mothers temple, though it was a bit of a stretch......I think the only thing you can't dance to is Metal Machine Music, unless you do some sort of weird robot dance but that wouldn't be so much dancing to it as just using it as inspiration to dance mechanically, so it doens't count!

Edited by tszirmay - June 05 2008 at 01:30

oh well, are we talking about arrogance?
then let's talk about Mr. Malmsteen.

he's and arrogant prick, IMO

Without reading all 3 pages, I present to you my contribution:

The de-emphasis of vocals is the number one reason people dislike prog.

People will tolerate a certain degree of soloing and extended instrumental breaks, but once it becomes as prominent as it is in prog, people start getting turned off pretty quickly.  For example, I told someone to go look up the video for Porcelain Heart (from the new Opeth album) for lack of any other good-quality videos from that album to show them, and their first comment to me was "I don't like that there's not very much singing" or something to that extent.  That completely throws instrumental songs out the window pretty much, and Porcelain Heart is barely prog-esque.

I've come across this comment countless times with a bunch of people, and it irritates me to death, but I can see where they're coming from.  As a fairly skilled drummer (by you guys' standards, not modern rock standards) and someone reasonably knowledgable about other parts of music, I can enjoy as much instrumental music as you can throw at me, but give it to someone who knows less about music, and the only the best you can hope for is that they'll use it for unintrusive background music to listen to while studying/reading/etc.  Their minds can't wrap around what it's giving to them, so it just because a chaotic amalgamation of notes.

You also have to deal with the fact that most people coast through life with minimal thinking, which prog doesn't exactly cater to that.  At the same time, some Santana stuff is pretty easy to get into, even though he's doing some pretty hard stuff.  This is part of a larger problem, though, which prog music is likely not going to remedy any time soon.

agProgger wrote: Without reading all 3 pages, I present to you my contribution: The de-emphasis of vocals is the number one reason people dislike prog. People will tolerate a certain degree of soloing and extended instrumental breaks, but once it becomes as prominent as it is in prog, people start getting turned off pretty quickly.  For example, I told someone to go look up the video for Porcelain Heart (from the new Opeth album) for lack of any other good-quality videos from that album to show them, and their first comment to me was "I don't like that there's not very much singing" or something to that extent.  That completely throws instrumental songs out the window pretty much, and Porcelain Heart is barely prog-esque. Interesting idea.  For some time I've thought that pop music is essentially vocally driven music, whereas the more "highbrow" genres rely less upon vocals. I've come across this comment countless times with a bunch of people, and it irritates me to death, but I can see where they're coming from.  As a fairly skilled drummer (by you guys' standards, not modern rock standards) and someone reasonably knowledgable about other parts of music, I can enjoy as much instrumental music as you can throw at me, but give it to someone who knows less about music, and the only the best you can hope for is that they'll use it for unintrusive background music to listen to while studying/reading/etc.  Their minds can't wrap around what it's giving to them, so it just because a chaotic amalgamation of notes. I can't agree with this sort of elitism, however.  Junk music, like junk thought and junk culture in general, are symptoms of our era, not indicative of individual mental ability.  Look at, say, the period around the US revolutionary war.  Many people who lacked formal education still maintained an enthusiasm for what moderns would consider "high" art:  classical music, literature, painting, etc.  The decline in culture we presently observe may be analyzed in terms of alienation and commodification (this has been duplicated many times elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here). You also have to deal with the fact that most people coast through life with minimal thinking, which prog doesn't exactly cater to that.  Again, see my comment above. At the same time, some Santana stuff is pretty easy to get into, even though he's doing some pretty hard stuff.  This is part of a larger problem, though, which prog music is likely not going to remedy any time soon. If we prog fans are honest about it, prog music is just slightly more sophisticated pop music.  There's no room for elitism here.  If you truly want (and I pity the person who does) to spurn the vulgar tastes of the canaille, then acquire the taste for classical music.

Edited by WinterLight - June 16 2008 at 21:53

agProgger wrote: The de-emphasis of vocals is the number one reason people dislike prog. People will tolerate a certain degree of soloing and extended instrumental breaks, but once it becomes as prominent as it is in prog, people start getting turned off pretty quickly.  For example, I told someone to go look up the video for Porcelain Heart (from the new Opeth album) for lack of any other good-quality videos from that album to show them, and their first comment to me was "I don't like that there's not very much singing" or something to that extent.  That completely throws instrumental songs out the window pretty much, and Porcelain Heart is barely prog-esque. Interesting idea.  For some time I've thought that pop music is essentially vocally driven music, whereas the more "highbrow" genres rely less upon vocals. I can nearly guarantee you this is the reason. It's plausible at the very least. I've come across this comment countless times with a bunch of people, and it irritates me to death, but I can see where they're coming from.  As a fairly skilled drummer (by you guys' standards, not modern rock standards) and someone reasonably knowledgable about other parts of music, I can enjoy as much instrumental music as you can throw at me, but give it to someone who knows less about music, and the only the best you can hope for is that they'll use it for unintrusive background music to listen to while studying/reading/etc.  Their minds can't wrap around what it's giving to them, so it just because a chaotic amalgamation of notes. I can't agree with this sort of elitism, however.  Junk music, like junk thought and junk culture in general, are symptoms of our era, not indicative of individual mental ability.  Look at, say, the period around the US revolutionary war.  Many people who lacked formal education still maintained an enthusiasm for what moderns would consider "high" art:  classical music, literature, painting, etc.  The decline in culture we presently observe may be analyzed in terms of alienation and commodification (this has been duplicated many times elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here). It's not about mental capability, but rather there are no patterns that they recognize.  To those who are accustomed to such things (for whatever reason -- it often happens to be through a musical background) can get into prog more easily. I think it's just a matter of familiarity.  Most of my favorite albums I didn't enjoy at first; it wasn't until I devoted some attention to them that I found their appeal.  Serious music, in general, requires active participation whereas light music only requires ears. You also have to deal with the fact that most people coast through life with minimal thinking, which prog doesn't exactly cater to that.  Again, see my comment above. I will respond to this differently: this isn't simply a symptom of the musical world.  People don't think, and it's not that they're not capable -- they just don't.  It breaks my heart every time I see a guy who should be performing well in a given field, but he doesn't because he's stuck in some subculture that spurns thinking in that manner.  The religious often spurn science (less true these days), hip-hop/rap cultures spurn schooling and just about everything else, country cultures spurn things like technology, and so on.  It's not to say that there aren't vast numbers of exceptions, though. I agree with what you say here (more or less). At the same time, some Santana stuff is pretty easy to get into, even though he's doing some pretty hard stuff.  This is part of a larger problem, though, which prog music is likely not going to remedy any time soon. If we prog fans are honest about it, prog music is just slightly more sophisticated pop music.  There's no room for elitism here.  If you truly want (and I pity the person who does) to spurn the vulgar tastes of the canaille, then acquire the taste for classical music. I like non-prog music.  I'm not trying to be elitist here; I'm just making candid observations. I shouldn't have said "you".  My response was directed to those who follow that not-so-hidden tendency around here.

Edited by WinterLight - June 16 2008 at 23:14

agProgger wrote: That's basically what I was saying.  They're not familiar with anything on first listen, so they move on, whereas we look for patterns and such.  On the other hand, you have bands like Tool who are pretty immediately accessible, yet they are also extremely intricate.  This stems from a couple things: I think Pink Floyd would be another example:  whereas their music is quite simple, their arrangements are unrivaled.  Although it's fairly easy to listen to Pink Floyd, within it there's substantial richness for the discerning listener. Drums, for example, are probably the most accessible instrument to listen to if there is a band full of really good musicians, because most people aren't paying attention to the individual notes anyway. Quite often, yes, but not necessarily so.  Take something by, say, Billy Cobham, or on the other side of the spectrum, Necrophagist.  Not exactly disco beats there. People pay close attention to the lead guitar, and if they're shredding away, they can't relate to that. Incidentally, I can't relate to those sort of people.