British Prog is the best??

I hope you'll forgive me if you really like Kansas. I've tried many times to enjoy their music (as I'm always on the lookout for good symphonic bands) and on their 'classic' albums, well, the instruments sound good but the music is totally spoiled for me by (a) the proto-AOR way of singing; (b) the lyrics, which are far too earnest and solemn. I really don't enjoy lyricists who preach and moralise; that's why I find most of Yes' output in the past thirty (!) years unbearable, as well as much of the output of Spock's Beard, the Flower Kings and, yes, the Tangent.

When it comes to 1970s North American prog, I much prefer Happy the Man and also Zappa, whose ONE SIZE FITS ALL is one of the greatest symphonic (!) prog masterpieces.

Now is British prog "the best"?

Ivan clearly doesn't think so (always excepting Genesis), but he mainly focuses on symphonic prog.

Other members have pointed out that the classic prog scene in Italy, Germany and other countries was just as varied and original as in the U.K., and I am willing to believe them. I've heard quite a few superb German bands, I'm discovering more and more Italian ones (thanks to Progarchives!), and they're lots of fun.

But in some cases I wonder: aren't you thinking with your head, instead of your heart? Ghostrider, if I'm not mistaken, you wrote the classic Italian scene was just as impressive as the British. But if I look at your list of reviews, among 36 albums you awarded the maximum number of stars, only 8 are non-British! Doesn't that tell you enough?

In the end, it remains a matter of taste. If you generally happen to enjoy non-British acts more than British bands, well, then so be it. I personally grew up with Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, and a whole range of Canterbury bands. They played a major role in forming me (hope that doesn't sound pompous), and for me their humour (erm, little humour in classic Yes, of course...) and colourfulness will probably remain unmatched. (By the way, this doesn't mean I haven't yet discovered any music beter than theirs - far from it.)

As for today's prog scene, it can't be denied it's much more alive OUTSIDE the U.K. As I've said many times, Kenso (Japanese) and Discus (Indonesian) are my favourite prog bands from the last two decades. They're really as good as any other prog I can think of. And don't start telling me they're not 'proper' prog! Kenso, for example, may play "fusion", but they're full of influences from classic prog acts like Steve Hackett and Brand X.

The Scandinavians, too, are doing better than the Brits. And I've come to realise I know too little about the Latin American prog scene.

But that doesn't mean British prog is dead. As I mentioned before, I find it especially heartening to see how influence from the Canterbury Scene is getting more and more pronounced in all kinds of British experimental jazz. It looks as if a whole generation of enthusiastic jazzers (mainly in their thirties and forties) are now incorporating influences from the Soft Machine, Egg and other bands they first heard several decades ago. And they have their own small, independent labels to release albums on. Something's definitely stirring there!

Atavachron wrote: tszirmay wrote: This is kind of a funny thread because rock music in general was motored by the British Invasion anyway  Not to get into chicken and egg territory, but since rock is an art form native to the United States, I think we know what motored what, and it depends what you mean by 'British Invasion', which was only an invasion if you didn't live in Britain..  the 'invasion' may have been the creatively and commercially dominant form for a good while - and even that's debatable when you consider artists as Santana, CSN&Y, Hendrix, Doors, Janis, BS&T, Iron Butterfly, Airplane, Joni Mitchell, Simon&Garfunkel..  (I'm sorry, did you say American rock wasn't influential? ;)  - but it didn't really influence progressive rock like the Anglo/American underground scenes did  .. in fact much Prog was a movement against the simpler blues/rock formats of Cream, Stones, Who, Beatles, Zeppelin, was it not?

This is kind of a funny thread because rock music in general was motored by the British Invasion anyway and the subsequent prog wave (1969-1975) was essentially but not uniquely composed of British bands, as Italy, France, Germany, Holland had equally vibrant interest in this cultured form of Rock music. In fact, Montreal was a huge stepping stone for Euro bands into the American market. Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Tull, made their entries through French Canada  with bands such as Supertramp and Gentle Giant drawing HUGE crowds at a time when they were piddling everywhere else! What perhaps has been unclear is that it spread like wildfire (especially post -Woodstock) as everyone was looking for a new trip! But prog is essentially a borderless form of music unlike most other forms. PA has members that cover the globe , pretty much. Even Tierra del Fuego! 

Edited by tszirmay - June 16 2008 at 23:01

Certif1ed wrote: Atavachron wrote: American Psychrock may not have turned into Prog, but U.S. Psych as a genre (i.e. the bands I've mentioned) was one of the main building blocks of the English Underground movement.  European Spacerock is kind of a separate deal, it drew from many sources and I don't really see the relevance   ..the term 'psychedelic rock' has been sorta twisted out of shape over the decades, becoming a catch-all for any 'trippy' or 'spacey' music but this just isn't the case, and history must be observed    It seems quite clear that UK Prog arose from UK Psychedelia/Underground, which in turn arose from US Psych - and the Folk, Blues and Jazz scenes before that. Most of these musical types originated in the US - or Africa, if you want to be pedantic about it.

Agree Cert ...
But the Brits + other Europeans had the uncanny ability - as they still do to this day - to take a US entity and make it better...




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Edited by Utah Man - June 16 2008 at 17:38

Hawkwise wrote: Garion81 wrote: I am so tired of the USA getting crapped on in threads like this.  I grew up in Orange County, California in the 70's graduating High School in 1974.  We had 5 bands playing symphonic progressive rock from 1972-1978 never getting signed. (ask Micky I gave him samples of some of the bands practice tapes) I remember a concert where all 5 played at and it drew 5000 kids and none of these groups had a deal.   That was 5 bands in one small part of the country.  I contend most American prog died on the vine and was never signed because the music industry was already consolidating the avenues of styles.  (The only real experimental music in the US came out of the 67-70 Psychedelic bands and other The Doors, The Byrds and Touch but even still much of this music was still processed for hit radio) The only reason we had Kansas was because they had drawn Don Kirshner's notice BEFORE Kerry Livgren joined the band.  It was Livgren that added the symphonic elements to the group.  It was a total fluke. Before people criticize this band I have heard more people in the US say their first introduction to prog, several dozen in the last year or so,  was through Kansas. Maybe they were not influential on an international level but here they certainly were.    (For all of you who say they were a copy cat band I suggest you pick up an album called Proto-Kaw Early Recordings From Kansas 1971-3 and see how much earlier some of the songs the famous Kansas recorded were actually written and hear how Livgren was using more experimental music with no synths or mellotrons)     I would put up the recordings of Happy the Man against any band from Europe in the 70's as well.  They may well have the most Euro sounding of all the American groups.    No we were not well represented in the 70's on record but the current wave of bands are as good or better than anything out there now. I put IZZ, Echolyn, Helmet of Gnats, Frogg Cafe, Umphreys McGee up as more of progressive band than PT.  The Tanget is an international band with a terrible singer so don't try to get British ownership there.  As for cheese there is nothing cheesier than Neo in my mind.  Galahad (British) anyone?    That said it was the Britsih who popularized the sound.  Whether or not it is the best is entirely subjective.    I am not trying cause a war but at I am least trying to defend and educate what was going on in the US in the 70's     Sorry but Kansas where never in the same league as any the Prog Bands from the UK and Europe

Agree...
Yes the Brits "popularized" Progressive, but also:
1. I think Americans generally are a "Pop" music oriented society...period.
2. The U.S. Music Industry / Record Label issue I believe has little to do with American Prog not being "as good as " Non-American.




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1960-1979 was great for British Prog,then i pretend the eighties and nineties didnt exist then straight to present day prog in the us i mean come on John Zorn & Patton!

I certainly think the mentioned bands was based more on popularity then actual quality.

fuxi wrote: BaldFriede wrote: The Krautrock scene goes back to 1967, before anyone would have thought of prog, and they were working on something similar already then. Bands like Guru Guru, Amon Düül (not yet separated into I and II back then) or Tangerine Dream did this kind of music before the famous "ITCOTCK" came out; they just didn't get an album out. But once "Psychedelic Underground" had come out the other bands dared to publish an album too because it could definitely not be worse than "Psychedelic Underground". It is a horrible album, but nevertheless a milestone in the history of prog; without it it would probably have taken a lot longer before Krautrock bands started publishing albums.Now if you said the best symphonic albums are from the UK I might perhaps agree, though especially the Italian scene could rival you there. But for me the best scene is the Krautrock scene (up until 1974 or 1975). So many fantastic albums there; only very few British bands can compete with it (though some certainly do). Granted, most of the bands never made it big; in terms of success the Krautrock scene can't compete with the British scene at all. And most of the bands definitely don't fall under "symphonic" in any way. But in terms of "good music" they can definitely compete! Baldfriede, which Krautrock albums do you personally recommend? I would dearly like to explore the genre a little further, and I could just start with the top titles on Progarchives, but I know you've got excellent taste, so I'd be grateful for your advice... P.S. As I mentioned earlier, I already know Can, Kraan and Neu - but also Novalis, Jane, Kraftwerk, Popol Vuh and (of course!) Udo Lindenberg. It's the rest of the Krautrock Scene I'm wondering about. (Perhaps I should add that the "cosmic synths" of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze do not appeal to me.) Thanks in advance for your help!

Try Guru Guru's Känguru; one of their very best albums. Also "Wolf City" by Amon Düül 2 (all of the first few albums of Amon Düül 2 are great though, but "Wolf City" probably is the best start). And try Embryo's "Rocksession", another great album. The Cosmic Jokers might perhaps not appeal to you, although they are not exactly along the lines of Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream, even though Schulze plays with them. But they really rock, and if you want to know what Krautrock is really about I highly recommend "Galactic Supermarket" or their first self-titled album. They are not as "boring" as Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze (take that with a grain of salt please; I don't consider those artists to be boring at all, at least not the early albums). That's just for starters; I could give you a much longer list.


Edited by BaldFriede - June 16 2008 at 12:44

The best thing that comes from England must be the Canterbury Scene. Apart from that, I must say I prefer nordic prog and eastern European prog. I'm a huge fan of Hungarian and Polish prog, jazz and alternative, and I love their pronounciation of English in their music. Also, it's no secret, that in ym most favourite bands there are the Flower Kings, Wigwam, Tasavallan Presidentti, Haikara etc... almost 50% nordic power, then of course the must-listen-to from Britain.

In that sense though, there isn't one proghead that hasn't listened to Genesis, Yes, J-Tull and all that stuff. Britain gave birth to a beautiful movement, and thusly, though not my favourite, surely the best place to play prog-rock :)

/me listens to PRR, Porcupine Tree, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Yes, King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, Marillion, and everything else at the same time!

BaldFriede wrote: The Krautrock scene goes back to 1967, before anyone would have thought of prog, and they were working on something similar already then. Bands like Guru Guru, Amon Düül (not yet separated into I and II back then) or Tangerine Dream did this kind of music before the famous "ITCOTCK" came out; they just didn't get an album out. But once "Psychedelic Underground" had come out the other bands dared to publish an album too because it could definitely not be worse than "Psychedelic Underground". It is a horrible album, but nevertheless a milestone in the history of prog; without it it would probably have taken a lot longer before Krautrock bands started publishing albums.Now if you said the best symphonic albums are from the UK I might perhaps agree, though especially the Italian scene could rival you there. But for me the best scene is the Krautrock scene (up until 1974 or 1975). So many fantastic albums there; only very few British bands can compete with it (though some certainly do). Granted, most of the bands never made it big; in terms of success the Krautrock scene can't compete with the British scene at all. And most of the bands definitely don't fall under "symphonic" in any way. But in terms of "good music" they can definitely compete!

Baldfriede, which Krautrock albums do you personally recommend? I would dearly like to explore the genre a little further, and I could just start with the top titles on Progarchives, but I know you've got excellent taste, so I'd be grateful for your advice...

P.S. As I mentioned earlier, I already know Can, Kraan and Neu - but also Novalis, Jane, Kraftwerk, Popol Vuh and (of course!) Udo Lindenberg. It's the rest of the Krautrock Scene I'm wondering about. (Perhaps I should add that the "cosmic synths" of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze do not appeal to me.) Thanks in advance for your help!

American Psychrock may not have turned into Prog, but U.S. Psych as a genre (i.e. the bands I've mentioned) was one of the main building blocks of the English Underground movement.  European Spacerock is kind of a separate deal, it drew from many sources and I don't really see the relevance   ..the term 'psychedelic rock' has been sorta twisted out of shape over the decades, becoming a catch-all for any 'trippy' or 'spacey' music but this just isn't the case, and history must be observed 







Edited by Atavachron - June 15 2008 at 22:23