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The Pessimist 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: June 13 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3834 |
 Topic: Igor Stravinsky - Prog? I think so!Posted: May 22 2008 at 02:51 |
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I've been listening to The Firebird and The Rite of Spring a lot recently, and the first thing that came to mind is this: they are SO prog! maybe without the rock, but seriously i think this dude actually create the style of music we love so much. I view it as a kind of orchestrated half classical, half prog hybrid, and you can really hear it. He also represents the progressive nature of classical music, and his works are very important to the sophisticated development of conventional rock music, a.k.a. prog rock/art rock. Too many people are ignorant to his works IMO. What do you think?
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 02:56 |
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Not only Stravinsky, but also Debussy, Messaien, Scriabin...
I know what you mean about The Rite of Spring - and if you don't know it, you should check out the Butchershop Quartet's rock version
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3834 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 03:03 |
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Ahhhh... Debussy  i almost forgot about him. Another one who broke the harmonic mould.I might check out the rock version actually, should be interesting to listen to. |
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 03:25 |
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Stravinsky's influence on prog isn't as big as that of Johann Gambleputty de von Augsburg Horowitz Tikolensik Dingo-Dango-Dongo Eisenbahnwagen Guten Abend Ein Nürenberger Bratwurst Mit Kalbfleisch Bitte Hautkopf of Ulm.
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nightlamp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 07 2007 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 163 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 04:02 |
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Stravinsky? Prog? Nah... His music was certainly influential on the genre, but that doesn't make him prog any more than Beethoven's influence on the Romantics made him a Romantic himself.
Stravinsky died in 1971 though, so who knows what influenced his late works? Maybe someone can track down his two-piano reduction of In the Court of the Crimson King, or the lost sketches of his rock opera...  Edited by nightlamp - May 22 2008 at 04:06 |
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20030 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 07:41 |
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Well, Yes used to open their concerts with The Firebird so he must be. Never heard him called a dude before though.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 09:16 |
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No-one's trying to state that he influenced prog, but that the music he wrote bears some uncanny resemblances - which it does. And THAT makes him prog.
Unlike either Stockhausen or Varese, both of whom WERE influences on the Progressive music scene - although neither actually wrote prog.
I'd say that "Moonchild" owes a lot to avante-garde composers, even if not to Stravinsky. I'm definitely hearing a Schoenberg influence in it (from the 4 Moon-related movements of "Pierrot Lunaire" particularly - can't be a co-incidence).
Stravinsky completed his last opera, "The Rake's Progress", in 1951, BTW...
...and Beethoven can be heard copiously in the music of both Ekseption and Renaissance, and to a lesser extent, The Electric Light Orchestra (just to name the first 3 that spring to mind) - does that make him Prog? Proto Prog?
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 09:20 |
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Can't big up Messiaen's "Turangalila Symphonie" enough - if this post makes one more convert, then that's excuse enough!
I'd also like to point listeners towards Penderecki - his "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" and "St. Luke Passion" are astonishing. Truly Progressive, in a way that rock music simply hasn't caught up with yet.
Finally (for now), the Kronos Quartet's impeccable rendition of George Crumb's "Black Angels" is a must for those who like really dark music - it's similar in many ways to the Penderecki pieces, but shorter. You need a really strong constitution to listen to either of the Penderecki's in a single sitting Edited by Certif1ed - May 22 2008 at 09:21 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006 Location: OH Status: Offline Points: 4981 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 11:07 |
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Classical =/= prog.
That said, Stravinsky is amazing. But good also =/= prog |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 14:17 |
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Please... If we start adding classical composers with influence on prog or "prog" themselves (classical music always was a progressive-moving thing, always changing and developing, treated sometimes as a science, which only adds to the progressive evolution -not qualitative of course-) we really would have to add almost everybody....
Well, I always said that prog really started with the gregorian chants so...
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mithrandir
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 25 2006 Location: New Mexico Status: Offline Points: 933 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 14:20 |
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Igor is great, I have a burn of that 4 CD set of his, Prog or not....whatever, you all can hash that out, its all just great Outsider and Experimental music for the Cosmic Youth!
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007 Location: n/a Status: Offline Points: 8052 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 14:47 |
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It could always go instead of metal   |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:09 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:26 |
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No-one's talking about adding composers of proper music... yet
 However, the core style of the composers mentioned (bringing in a mixture of varying styles, both traditional and popular, mixing them all up into a new sound, creating concept albums, using dense complexity of composition in melody, rhythm, harmony, form and timbre whilst avoiding the traditional song forms - even eschewing such trivial notions as Classical Sonata Form - preferring instead a more organic, developing style of composition - and bringing radical popular styles such as Jazz into the music) is undeniably Prog.
Composers like Mozart and Haydn, who stuck to the old forms (by and large - let's not get too deep here!) wouldn't even get a look in - Mozart was progressive, but not Prog.
Most 20th Century composers would fall by the wayside too - aside from inventing new methods of compostion (which I feel is cheating somewhat - especially given the bureaucratic nature of some of the systems, and the airy-fairy do-what-you-like free nature of others), introducing new timbres (especially electronics - but generally the music tends to suck because the method of composition is too rigid/free) and getting melodically and rhythmically out of kilter - the biggest sin of most of these guys is to ignore form, the most critical element of any progressive genre, IMHO.
Trouble is, most of it was written before Rock, so the chances of seeing it in the Archives anytime soon are pretty slim, I'd guess... although Zappa's here, and he was a composer.
Listen to "La Mer" by Debussy (it's more than 20 minutes long, dude!) - puts Echoes into the shade a bit. Once you understand the concept behind it, it makes more sense - and the music really comes alive. What Debussy does with form is astonishing.
Then listen to "Rhapsody in Blue" by George Gershwin - ELP coulda learned something from that piece - that dude could really rock, even though, you know, it hadn't actually been invented in 1924...
Edited by Certif1ed - May 22 2008 at 15:34 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Avantgardehead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006 Location: Dublin, OH, USA Status: Offline Points: 1170 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:34 |
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If, by some unholy act, Stravinski gets in, I'm adding Erik Satie. Being a big influence on Steve Hackett, the guitar player of one of the biggest prog bands, I think he'd have a place here.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:35 |
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No way - Satie wrote short pieces of pop music...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007 Location: n/a Status: Offline Points: 8052 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 15:36 |
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Proto. Duh |
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3834 |
Posted: May 23 2008 at 03:17 |
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meh, Satie is comparitively mainstream the idea behind this thread is not to get Stravinski into the archives - which quite a few of my posts seem to be interpretted as these days, but to open the prog mind to its influences. of course, it would be nice to have him in the proto-prog section, but that's not what i'm asking: just a mere appreciation and a few opinions on the man's works. one thing i find quite amusing is that the first Stavinsky concert caused riots amongst the traditional romanticists, while Debussy was shouting at the top of his voice "GENIUS! GENIUS!" it's a big shame that didn't happen with say Krimson's first ever gig |
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12813 |
Posted: May 23 2008 at 07:37 |
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Surely by definition, the remembered composer names of classical and serious music, have been significantly innovative, hence progressive within their genre? I'm reluctant to link any modern prog musician to a composer, thereby making the composer "progressive" (surely the wrong way round anyway). Darryl Way in Curved Air and Wolf regularly did his Vivaldi spot (oddly so has Pete Townshend on one of his solo albums). The original Renaissance line-up and album were tagged 'Beethovan & Blues'. And so on.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: May 23 2008 at 07:59 |
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Perhaps it would be interesting to compile a list of influential composers of classical music - with a small paragraph for each one which explains how they influenced prog - which artists/albums, and in what way.
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Igor Stravinsky - Prog? I think so!
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Certif1ed wrote: