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Andrew A. View Drop Down
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Points: 22 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog albums pre-Crimson King
    Posted: May 15 2008 at 11:49
It seems to be received prog wisdom that King Crimson's 1969 debut "In the Court of the Crimson King" stands as the first truly progressive album. However, it seems to me that KC didn't invent prog, and that albums had already been made that at least contained significant prog elements.
 
In particular, in 1968, Procol Harum's "Shine On Brightly" (especially "In Held 'Twas In I"), and Pink Floyd's "A Saucerful of Secrets" stand as among the first to include true prog material, as an evolution from their psychedelic roots.
 
Can anyone else name albums that pre-date "Crimson King" that could claim the title of first prog album, or at least contain some of the first prog music?
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The Quiet One View Drop Down
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2008 at 12:08
Surely every Zappa pre-Hot Rats.

Check Proto-Prog, surely there you'll find what you're looking for.

The Who A Quick One's song..
Deep Purple MK 1 albums...*
Well there are thousands, but surely not all of em influenced prog.*
The Nice? Strawbs?
The Doors?
Beatles..

etc, etc, etc..
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2008 at 12:08
Andrew  welcome. I'm afraid a subject that has been hammered a number of times - except the search engine locally is fairly useless - and indeed something similar just opened asa thread on pr-1970 prog.
 
The years you ask about were the height of the underground music period, which included allsorts: psychedelia, experimental rock, folk and blues, and fusions of many musical genres and theories. But stand by to be swamped with psychedelia  and avant rock/blues, which was not heard as prog until the young liberals here (who were neither born nor increasingly appear to have read the subject in any depth) started to rewrite history. Sticking to mainstream prog:
 
The original Renaissance (a chunk of the Yardbirds) released their album within a few months of ITCOCK and on the same label Island in the UK - and probably had the earlier above ground critical acclaim. To me the essential Touch, recorded 1968 in the US, part paid by Jimi Hendrix, and probably the first mainstream US prog album  (and you can hear connection to Vanilla Fudge - as you can with Nice). Inevitably  the Moody Blues, post Denny Laine albums, e.g. Days of Future Passed (which was part intended to encourage middle aged audiophiles to more sophisticated pop music). Then check out the better and more experimental psychedelic bands: Floyd, Soft Machine (first album).
 
In passing there are 6 or 8 excellent and cheap 3 CD box sets out there covering the period 1966 to1975, which can be recommended as samplers of this period of music, e.g. Legend of A Mind, Strange Pleasures (released last week)


Edited by Dick Heath - May 15 2008 at 12:11
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Andrew A. View Drop Down
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Points: 22 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2008 at 12:24
Thanks Dick - it's great to meet an expert on the subject! I have a collection of most of the big name bands of the 70s (Floyd, Crimson, ELP, Yes, Genesis), but feeling I've pretty much exhausted them I'm interested in expanding my horizons - both backwards (exploring some of the lesser known oldies) and forwards, discovering the best of what's out there today.
 
Thanks for your help! I love this website!
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2008 at 13:01
Originally posted by Andrew A. Andrew A. wrote:

Thanks Dick - it's great to meet an expert on the subject! I have a collection of most of the big name bands of the 70s (Floyd, Crimson, ELP, Yes, Genesis), but feeling I've pretty much exhausted them I'm interested in expanding my horizons - both backwards (exploring some of the lesser known oldies) and forwards, discovering the best of what's out there today.
 
Thanks for your help! I love this website!
 
Vanilla Fudge can be neglected too often but give strong clues to roots - try tthe album with the Supreme's cover You Keep Me Hanging On. Clearly an influence on early British prog (e.g. Nice) and US prog (e.g. Touch), but Jeff Beck has made it clear an influence on the heavy rock bands of the late 60, such as his and Led Zep - or more strictly the rhythm section of Bogert & Appice, who went from VF to Cactus and to the Beck Bogert Appice band - Carmen Appice then ended up for many years in Rod Stewart's (what I call) "Las Vegas band".
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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2008 at 13:34
I would call Days of Future Passed by the Moody Blues the first progressive rock album, but ITCOTCK I think has achieved a consensus as the most influential (as a recent poll here showed).
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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

But stand by to be swamped with psychedelia  and avant rock/blues, which was not heard as prog until the young liberals here (who were neither born nor increasingly appear to have read the subject in any depth) started to rewrite history. Sticking to mainstream prog:
 
 
I am curious about the use of a political term in reference to progressive rock. I am not  a youngin (late 40s) and I am pretty well read on the subject, but since I am a liberal I am curious about that term. Are you implying that liberals rewrite history and conservatives don't (he said chuckling). Have you listened to George Bush for more than 10 minutes? Rush Limbaugh? Anyway, I just found that odd.
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 03:44
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

I would call Days of Future Passed by the Moody Blues the first progressive rock album, but ITCOTCK I think has achieved a consensus as the most influential (as a recent poll here showed).
 
/cosigned
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Points: 32 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 05:07
red crayola recorded "the parable of arable land" in 66. freak out, by zappa, also 66. can recorded "prepare to meet thy pnoom" in 67, i think, but it was only a boot until much later. does the presence of mellotron/pretentious lyrics win it for the moodies? i don't know. the idle race(jeff lynne) was before crimson, too. and did any actual musicians take ITCOTCK more seriously than freak out? i'm the biggest crimson fan in th world and ITCOTCK is one seriously annoyingly unlistenable album, unless you're the comic book guy from the simpsons.
glen- "funny world..."
h.i. "damn funny."
glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..."
h.i. "i'd buy one..."
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 12:24
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

But stand by to be swamped with psychedelia  and avant rock/blues, which was not heard as prog until the young liberals here (who were neither born nor increasingly appear to have read the subject in any depth) started to rewrite history. Sticking to mainstream prog:
 
 
I am curious about the use of a political term in reference to progressive rock. I am not  a youngin (late 40s) and I am pretty well read on the subject, but since I am a liberal I am curious about that term. Are you implying that liberals rewrite history and conservatives don't (he said chuckling). Have you listened to George Bush for more than 10 minutes? Rush Limbaugh? Anyway, I just found that odd.
 
'liberal' wrt to interpretation - over here wrt politics this might  be with a capital L, LIberal..... conservative (small c)  meaning an  old prog fan like me  would not broadly encompassing  as many forms of music as the young folks   - who  might less aware  of the narrow definition of progressive rock in the early/mid 70's. (Just to confuse: 'progressive  music' is more ambiguous but only covers music appearing 1968 to 1970 - to some the term could be the alternative description for some or all  'underground music' - but to me heavy rock, psychedelia might be underground but not progressive music (which also included quite a bit of blues rock...) . Confusing ain't it.Wink and I have to lie down before being able to continue further - if requiredBig%20smile


Edited by Dick Heath - May 16 2008 at 12:26
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Rocktopus View Drop Down
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 13:00
I consider In the Court of the Crimson King the startingpoint of 70's prog, but here's some albums (not yet mentioned) that might have some of what you look for:

68:

Family: Music in A Doll's House
Incredible String Band: The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter


69 (but earlier than KC)

Xhol Caravan: Electrip C
Skin Alley: Skin Alley
Can: Monster Movie
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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mithrandir View Drop Down
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Points: 933 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 14:18
Fifty Foot Hose - cauldron 1967/68
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KrakAtack View Drop Down
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Points: 165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:20
If  .............  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_(band)...... Thumbs%20Up

If%20cover
If%202%20cover
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KrakAtack View Drop Down
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Points: 165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:23
Skin Alley is excellent...........
http://www.alexgitlin.com/npp/skinalley.htm

The%20image%20“http://www.alexgitlin.com/npp/skinalley34.jpg”%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.
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bang! View Drop Down
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Points: 32 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:40
if you count family you can also count everything jon hiseman and everything relf via yardbirds and it's a slippery slope, it's not what we really mean by prog rock and the first incredible string band record was weirder than "h's b d " anyway but then that's prog folk and a whole different conversation.  the strawbs only get  mentioned on this site once they got a mellotron but it's basically the same music as "all our own work" . what are we talking about here? red crayola, quicksilver, even lee michaels? 
glen- "funny world..."
h.i. "damn funny."
glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..."
h.i. "i'd buy one..."
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:47
Curious, as far as individual tracks go, how many of you consider "Interstellar Overdrive," which I believe was being played live in late '66 though not yet recorded, to be an early example of progressive rock?
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KrakAtack View Drop Down
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Points: 165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 03:38
IO is an early example of prog............a lot of Traffic also was............even Time Has Come Today by the Chambers Brothers..........and DOA by BloodRock
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Points: 165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 03:40
But stand by to be swamped with psychedelia  and avant rock/blues, which was not heard as prog until the young liberals here (who were neither born nor increasingly appear to have read the subject in any depth) started to rewrite history.


That leaves me out as I was born the same year as the first B-52 flew.......................1953......................and I am not even close to being a liberal.........Libertarian  yes...............liberal....no way............
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Points: 7113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 03:54
Psh! Days of Future Passed can't be the first prog album. First off, it's WAY too popish; it...Does...Not...RAWK!!! No metal hands for it.
 
See, for something to be proggy, it has to contain some of the rocky, and therefore, "Schizo" certainly counts. The Moodies were pretty much art-pop at that point. Which, of course, good and all. But it's still pop. If you count dem Moodies as the first proggers, then you'd have to contradict yourself, and say that Pet Sounds was the first prog album, predating Inna Court AND Sgt. Peppah (and, hell, you'd probably be right).
 
Taking that into account, I would say that Procol Harum were definately at the forefront. They were the first band that REALLY fused art and rock into a single, gooey, awesome mass. Despite the keyboards, they really could make something rock and be intelligent (see: "Christmas Camel," "Repent Walpurgis," "Conquistador," etc).
 
To dig deeper back, I recently came to realize how innovative "A Quick One" must have been. If that thing had recieved the budget that Townsend had wanted, it would be considered an all time classic instead of a cult curio.
 
And props to my man Dick Heath there (heya Dick! I don't know you, do I?) for mentioning the Yardbirds; certainly something like "Still I'm Sad" must have seemed to have come from nowhere, and scared the living f**k out of everyone who heard it. Gregorian chants and lame poetry in a singles band? Awesome.
 
Final notes: although when we consider their classic "epic" tracks, the Doors doubtless come off as psychadelic ("The End"), jazzy ("Riders on the Storm"), or a proto-prog hybrid at best ("When the Music's Over" and "L.A. Woman"); however, something with the spread, intent, and PRETENTION of the "Celebration of the Lizard" suite comes to mind as a step towards the progressive. However, for a truly shattering track, the interested should listen to "The Soft Parade," a nine-minute, multi-part suite, VERY mature sounding for a band in 1969, the SAME FRIGGIN' YEAR as Inna Court.
 
In closing, to answer the initial question, what was the first prog rock album? Well DUH...This Was.
"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 08:20
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Curious, as far as individual tracks go, how many of you consider "Interstellar Overdrive," which I believe was being played live in late '66 though not yet recorded, to be an early example of progressive rock?


Knowing how long Floyd's sets were especially with the light show, psychedelic music for the potheads and LSD trippers.
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