Developments which changed course of prog history

Jim Garten wrote: el böthy wrote: I will say Lake leaving Crimson, but not so much for the fact that he left a band, but that without that he couldn´t have formed ELP Interesting point - Lake leaving Crimson not only led to the creation of ELP, but also facilitated Crimson moving on to the next stage... Good one

I think you are vastly overstating the importance of Relayer, because you have some mancrush for Moraz and for some reason you don't care for Wakeman. We've already established that Gates was mostly all written and composed before Moraz got there, so his contribution to the piece is overstated. There is a middle section 'drum-keyboard battle' that I understand Moraz may have thrown some ideas in, and that is the weakest section of the song. Gates of Delerium is a gem because of the closing Soon song section, which is traditional epic symphonic prog Yes all the way, and again, something which Anderson had already written. Soon returns the song to traditional Yes symphonic prog, and is a natural progression from Tales, not a radical departure. Sound Chaser is very weak, and is an example of why Wakeman left---too much formless noodling without much structure--- a weakness of large parts of Tales he felt.

So no radical departure, but a culmination of the same Howe-Anderson ideas they had started on CTTE and then went further with on Tales. Wakeman was able to refocus their efforts and produce an epic Yes album in the tradition of Fragile and CTTE with GFTO, thus rendering Moraz' contribution to almost footnote status.

We'll have to disagree on Lamb, as it was basically a story song album with some instrumental pieces thrown in when Gabriel couldn't come up with all the lyrics. Since it was mostly the vision of one man, and not a true group effort the way Selling England and Trick were, its a flawed masterpiece, which is why some see Gabriel's departure as such a significant event, for better or worse.

Edited by Dr. Prog - May 07 2008 at 14:43

Genesis were at the second half of the seventies much more popular that the other prog bands (except for Pink Floyd and E.L.P.). So, the changes in that band were more influential than the same developments in King Crimson, for example.

I received a private message on this and I'd like to share part of my response with everyone.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   Well, it's a way of seing it, but I believe there was a great jump between TFTO and Relayer.   Tales is purely Symphonic as the predecesors, it flowed gently (despite the changes) from start to end as a piece in which the changes could be anticipated, any fan of Classic music would probably like it.   Relayer on the other hand has a different structure, faster, more radical, with many Jazz leanings, nothing can be predicted, hardly can be considered a 100% Symphonic it has too many sounds and influences going on, I would had expected soemthing like Relayer probably in King Crimson, but was not the usual work of Yes

ghost_of_morphy wrote:   And of course it is incumbent upon anybody who ever replies to any of Ivan's posts to add the following:   BOSTON FOR PROG-RELATED!!!

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: ghost_of_morphy wrote:   And of course it is incumbent upon anybody who ever replies to any of Ivan's posts to add the following:   BOSTON FOR PROG-RELATED!!!   GOM, as y0ou know, I don't decide this, it was discussed in the featured bands and rejected by a vat majority of the members.   From the three bands proposed (Boston, Journey and Toto) only one was accepted by the Administrator's team (from which I'm not part) and I don't even agree with Journey, but I have nothing to say, where there is a captain, the sailor has no voice.    But Boston, no matter how much influenced by Prog may it be, is an AOR band exclusively, and IMO shoiuld not be added.   The rest of your post is full of opinions with which I can agree or not, but I absolutely respect.   Iván

if it was all that clear, Boston would be in the prog related category. Obviously, there are a number of people here who apparantly are not too clear on all this, especially ones who think Triumph is prog related and Boston is not.

I have chosen the departure of Greg Lake from the Crimson's to form ELP. This is the most important and influencing event from the list, because it had consequences that were the formation of a new band, one of the best ones from the Prog Rock movement, which is by far more important than any of the other ones. It can have more impact, but I still think that a formation of a new band is more important and changed the history more, because of their music, and Elp did it, than the fall into an abym of a band, like Genesis for example, (exception for the first albums after PG's era).

Edited by Philip - May 09 2008 at 17:23

How many of you are writing  from  second or third hand points of view, either not being born or too young to be aware of such changes? Syd Barrett departure /DGilmour  joining went unnoticed outside Floyd psychedelic fan base - and then Gilmour writes about the process wrt getting Syd riffs. Pete Banks departure from Yes, again wouldn't been greatly noticed since it wasn't until The Yes Album, that Yes started to be included amongst the first rank of prog bands and that because what Steve Howe brought with him from Bodast. Tony Kaye's firing because of his reluctance to play synths and Yes finding somebody was clearly capable in Wakeman - there was a degree of inevitability of Wakeman going from the Strawbs to Yes, because of his reputation as asession player and by word of mouth of what he was doing live in the Strawbs.

But be aware the London based musicians knew each other well met/passed each other in studios and talked in  clubs out of hours. There was clearly a case of casually asking whether somebody was free to gig, if the first one won't do it somebody else would  - check out the thread recently on  the ease by which Terry Reid was asked to front Led Zeppelin, he declined and recommended Plant - because those musicians worked either with same management or were session players for particular studios. Hey Terry Reid played the Isle Of Wight Festival 1970 with David Lindley (later to work with Jackson Browne) and Mike Giles from King Crimson, who John Lennon recommended on behest of Alan White (pre-Yes). There is most definitely "who you know" as well as a "what you can do", aspect to these group changes

Gabriel leaving Genesis was a shock. Robert Wyatt fired from Soft Machine and then breaking his back were shocks - and perhaps had more significance wrt to the way RIO, and avant rock went in the UK. The failure of the first line-up of Renaissance to capitalise on a ground breaking album was a shock, when released to an equal amount of publicity (if not greater) than ITCOCK.  Then it is more about what if only: what if only Touch toured and made more records, that might have been significant for US prog? What if T2  had better publicity etc. and so on. What if those rock stars hadn't had a little too much booze or horse......?